The Indian Army’s .303 story

[timmy]

OK, got it. Thanks Winnie!

[TwoRivers]

Hi,
I think its called a slingshot. All illustrations of David killing the Goliath shows this as the weapon and the scripts say its a slingshot.
Others may throw more light.
This was used even by farmers in Punjab in old days, if I correctly remember a scene from Heer Ranjha made in the 60s.
TC

It's simply a "sling", an ancient weapon used by many people. Used wherever rocks were available. The Roman army used them with cast lead balls. A "slingshot" has a forked handle and rubber bands for the propelling power. "Catapult" in British parlance.

[TC]

It's simply a "sling", an ancient weapon used by many people. Used wherever rocks were available. The Roman army used them with cast lead balls. A "slingshot" has a forked handle and rubber bands for the propelling power. "Catapult" in British parlance.

Thanks Two Rivers. A sling it is. This is how the Cambridge dictionary defines the slingshot

"a Y-shaped stick or piece of metal with a piece of elastic (= material that stretches) attached to the top parts, used especially by children for shooting small stones".

and one of the many meanings of sling

"a simple weapon used mainly in the past in which a strap held at the ends was used for throwing stones"

Thanks again.
Regards
TC

[TC]

I'm surprised that they would use a blank cartridge and a separate projectile.
Having to load a blank and a projectile in the middle of a riot would be challenging.

Precisely my thoughts XL. Imagine a charging mob and a cop unscrewing the barrel attachment, inserting a rubber slug (without dropping it in the middle of all that tension), screwing back the attachment and then opening the bolt, inserting a blank cartridge in the chamber, pushing the bolt forward, taking aim and firing.
The troublemaker he might have marked before the entire process would have vanished by now.
Strange riot control strategy by the people who thought of this I must say. Not to mention the size of inventory the dept has to maintain. So many separate objects for one goal.


TC

[xl_target]

Maybe that is the reason for the cop using the Sling,
....easier...

There were photos of two different J&K cops using the same type of firearm so they must have modified several.
I wonder if Himachal's modifications will be similar.

[TC]

Maybe that is the reason for the cop using the Sling,
....easier...

There were photos of two different J&K cops using the same type of firearm so they must have modified several.
I wonder if Himachal's modifications will be similar.

XL I agree with your first observation
Don't think Himachal Pradesh and J &K cops will be using different modifications. This must be the brainchild of the same R&D - whatever R&D is at all done by the IOF that is !


TC

[CommanderRN]

Two subjects in this post on the .303 story: (1) Re fire forming: As an Engineer i do not recognise the word 'recipe'! The metallurgy is simple: raise the case in the required area to annealing temperature and cool it rapidly. I polish previously fired .303 rifle cases so that the colour change can be SEEN. Only heat the area up around the neck do not allow heat soak. I push a kebab stick in the primer flash hole from outside and rapidly revolve the other end of the case in the flame of a small butane torch. When I see the colour change occur I shake off the case into cold water. If you allow heat soak and finish up with the base end annealed it will fire form and can be hard to eject. Success rate so far 100% with no cracking. (2) More on the Ishapore .410: The one I have started as a MkIII* in 1917. Conversion in 1930 was to [A] Smooth bore the barrel. Bore the chamber cylindrical to the diameter of a parallel untapered and unnecked .303 case i.e. 0.450". Note a modern '410'cartridge is 0.468" at the brass. Guns subsequently bored in way of the chamber to take commercial cases have a lower collector's value than those still as converted at the factory on the date on the left hand side of the receiver band. The rear sight leaf is immobilised in the rearmost position by a rivet. [C] Block off the magazine aperture with a wood block dowelled in place under a 'loading platform' as in the Ishapore Single Loading variant. My example has the dowel holes plugged and a No.4 magazine in place. My understanding is that attempts to magazine load Kirkee 'cake sliced' rounds or in the case of guns with post factory modification to modern '410' were unsuccessful when tried. But I reckon that Kynoch ball might load as they would lead into the chamber unlike the very blunt ends of the other cartridges. However as a shot gun it does not bear comparison with my Boswell 12 bore side by sides even though my 16 year old grandson was happily breaking incoming clays at close range with it the other day.

[xl_target]

Commander RN,
Thanks for the input.
Stands to reason that annealing the case neck would allow fireforming without cracking.
It's good to know that you have another youngster being trained to appreciate firearms.

[xl_target]

An American reviews the Ishapore 2A1

[youtube][/youtube]

[timmy]

I liked him featuring the RFI 2A, (2A1 in this case), but he probably could cut down on the testosterone talk and read a little.

"SMLE" doesn't stand for "Short Magazine" + "Lee Enfield"

"SMLE" DOES stand for "Short" + "Magazine" + "Lee Enfield"

The "Short" designation meant that it had a short 25" barrel, rather than the long 30" barrel of the "Long Lees," or MLE (Magazine + Lee Enfield) or CLLE (Charger Loading + Lee Enfield).

I would have been interested in seeing his groups, as well as what kind of ammo he used. He might have also discussed cock on closing, and used charging clips to load.

[ckkalyan]

The reviewer does a better job with descriptions here

[youtube][/youtube]

[timmy]

I liked this guy's explanation, which I feel was important in many respects, like the manufacture early on as a backup to the FN FAL.

It's also important to note the better steel in these, compared to what is used in the No.1 Mk 3 SMLEs, which are certainly too weak to handle the 308.

One thing he was a bit mixed up on was the use of 308/7.62x51 in other rifles -- the No. 4 Mk 1 was used to covert to the higher power round, but the No 4 Mk 1 is a stronger action inherently than the No 1 Mk3 was.

I see that he used some clips from the vid that XL posted, which is fine, but I can't say i'm too impressed by Mr. Testosterone.

This one does give a nice little overview. Everyone should have one of these guns!

[ckkalyan]

LOL timmy, valid comments you have there

Both the reviews are by the very same 'testosterone guy' sootch00 - for some reason he did a short one and then a longer one on the Ishapore 2A1

[gwattal]

A finished copy of the Rifle No.1 Mk.III, Short Magazine Lee Enfield (SMLE), produced at a tribal arms factory in the Kohat Pass on the North West Frontier of India.

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205090595

[gwattal]

The forge at a tribal arms factory in the Kohat Pass on the North West Frontier of India. Here were manufactured copies of British Army rifles.

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205090590