The Indian Army’s .303 story

[Skyman]

You sir, can carry it forth.

[tranter]

Hi,
I know this is a bit late, there is one conversion that was done at Ishapore to the .303 that nobody has mentioned, and that is .303 rifle to a .410 musket which involved removing the magazine and filling the opening with a block of wood to make it a single shot and smooth boring the barrel, and which I believe was used by the police, though I may be wrong

[timmy]

tranter, these .410 muskets were, as you have stated, converted by plugging the magazine well with a wooden block and quite a few were sold in the USA. The cartridge was not the normal .410 shotshell, but a brass case which can be formed from .303 cases, and fired a spherical ball projectile. I would love to have one of these. Quite a few were converted to shoot .410 shotshells, either in 2 1/2" or 3" length.

I would love to get one still chambered in the original. So many guns, so little time!

[tranter]

Hi Tim, I have to say I have one, mine is a 1915 BSA converted by the RFI to .410 in 1949. It has been bored to take the .410 shotshell. As you probably know, the original brass was un-necked .303, I have tried fire forming .303 to fit with various results,some were pretty good and others not so good, but all would improve with use.
I have suddenly found myself with a small collection of Ishapore items , I have two MkII* bayonets as well, now I am looking for more !
I would like to find some pictures of the guns in service, both the 2A1 and the .410,
thanks
Regards
Tranter

[timmy]

tranter: Lucky you, for sure! I have been distracted by too many things, and I need to refocus on a 410 Musket! (You see, XL, there goes those AR thoughts...)

I have wanted to go on a hunt for bayonets for the 2A, as well. I have been involved in a M91 Mosin project lately (one of my other weaknesses), but I need to get back with SMLE stuff again.

A few years back, there were a lot of Central and Mues target sights for SMLEs from Australia and New Zealand on ebay, but those seem to have dried up. Now there is only an occasional Parker Hale for an outrageous price. Have you considered using a target sight on yours?

I found this pic quite some time ago and it is a favorite of mine. Have you seen this one?



I wish that it was larger!

I've seen the recipes for fire forming brass into 410 Musket -- but it isn't surprising that the process doesn't always result in success. But that is part of the fun of it -- how boring to just buy a box of shotgun shells! I figured that, when the time came, I would get one of those old style Dixie Gun Works tong tools to cast some balls -- on this side of the ocean, the proper term would be "punkin balls" (a corruption of "pumpkin").

[tranter]

Hi Tim,
Great picture !!!! exactly the sort of thing I am looking for.
I haven't thought about a target sight though "I may look into it ", I know what you mean about the cost of PH sights, and thats one reason I like to keep things simple [ I can't afford it ] also I like to keep the spirit of the gun, to shoot it as it was shot, if that makes sense
Regards
T

[tranter]

Regarding the .410 brass, I love the term "punkin balls", and thats just what I thought I would try as well, after all it is a musket rather than a shotgun and the last issued musket at that !
Regards
Tranter

[xl_target]

Look at this photo. It looks like a shortened (suppressed?) .303 being used by indian police.


This image came fromthis thread. A few photos in there including a 2A/2A1.

[CommanderRN]

I have been off Forum for some months but am now back! With the 100th Anniversary of the start of WW1 and following the history of my family (Uncle in Indian Army from early 1920's until post Partition then a Colonel at Peshawar and a Cousin twice removed killed 26 September 1915 with the Royal Scots Fusiliers at the Battle of Loos in WW1) I decided to restart rifle shooting as well as smooth bore shooting and bought an Ishapore built 1917 SMLE and a 1917 Enfield built SMLE MkIII*. The Ishapore is a 1930 conversion to .410 and I fire form standard .303 brass cartridges which I anneal and fit new primers and refill with the contents of current .410 shot gun shells. My 16 year old grandson can actually break clays with it! If I can help with anything let me know and anyway I will post further in due course...

[TC]

Look at this photo. It looks like a shortened (suppressed?) .303 being used by indian police.

[ Image ]
This image came fromthis thread. A few photos in there including a 2A/2A1.

A most interesting find XL !
This looks like an unknown Indian improvisation on the otherwise famous Delisle silenced rifle that was built on the 303 Enfield frame but in 45 ACP cal and with a barrel that was built from scratch only to deliver death in silence. The suppressor tube covered the entire barrel that was ported after the first five inches if I remember correctly. I'm sure you know this beauty. I was always fascinated by two avatars of the 303 - one is the Delisle and the other, the almost forgotten jungle carbine with the conical flash suppressor.

Here's the Delisle


And found this rather modern version customized by some enthusiast. (Source thehighroad.com)


The rifle in the pic you have posted is certainly not a Delisle. I have never seen one like this with any police force in India or during my visits to Army bases and silos in J&K. The shoulder pin on this man says JKP but the ammo vest looks like military issue, so's the bandana. I am intrigued and clueless at this point.
But here's a history of the Delisle from Wikipaedia for our members. Not the best source in all cases but this piece appears researched.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Lisle_carbine

The weapon was designed as a private venture by William Godfray de Lisle (known as Godfray), an engineer who worked for the Air Ministry.[4] He made the first prototype in .22 calibre; this he tested by shooting rabbits and other small game for the table, near his home on the Berkshire Downs.[5] In 1943, he approached Major Sir Malcolm Campbell of Combined Operations with his prototype; this was informally tested by firing into the River Thames from the roof of the New Adelphi building in London. This was chosen to discover if people in the street below heard the firing of the weapon. They did not.[5] Combined Operations officials were impressed with the weapon and requested De Lisle produce a 9mm version. However, this was a failure. A third prototype, using the .45 ACP cartridge that was favoured by de Lisle, was much more successful. Tests of this showed the weapon had adequate accuracy, produced no visible muzzle flash and was inaudible at a distance of 50 yards (46 m).[2]

Subsequent official firing tests recorded the De Lisle produced 85.5 dB of noise when fired.[6] As a comparison, modern testing on a selection of handguns has shown that they produce 156 to 168 dB when firing without a suppressor, and 117 to 140 dB when firing with one fitted.[7] The de Lisle's quietness was found to be comparable to the British Welrod pistol. However, the Welrod was useful only at very short range and used fabric and rubber components in the suppressor that required replacement after a few shots. The de Lisle was able to fire hundreds of rounds before the suppressor required disassembly for cleaning.[8]

Combined Operations requested a small production run of De Lisle carbines and an initial batch of 17 were hand–made by Ford Dagenham, with Godfray De Lisle himself released from his Air Ministry duties so he could work full-time on the project; this initial batch was immediately put into combat use by the British Commandos.[6] In 1944, the Sterling Armaments Company was given an order for 500 De Lisle carbines, but eventually only produced around 130.[6] The Sterling version differed in a number of details from the earlier, Ford Dagenham version. Two prototypes of a further version, for Airborne forces, were made. These had folding stocks, similar to those fitted to the Sterling submachine gun.[9]

During the remainder of World War II, the De Lisle carbine was mainly used by the Commandos, although they also saw some use by the Special Operations Executive (SOE).[10] E. Michael Burke, the American former commander of a Jedburgh Team, stated that a De Lisle was used by them to assassinate two senior German officers in 1944.[10]

A number of De Lisles were shipped to the Far East and used during the Burma Campaign. The De Lisle would also be used during the Korean War and the Malayan Emergency.[10] It has been claimed the weapon was also used by the Special Air Service during the Northern Irish Troubles.[10]

TC

[xl_target]

The rifle in the pic you have posted is certainly not a Delisle.

You're quite correct. It is certainly not a DeLisle.
From the small size of the suppressor, I wonder if it is a cut down .22 training rifle being used as a "hush puppy".
Obviously it is not his primary weapon as he has a slung AK.

The caption of the photo says that it is being used in riot control.
Remember, the Israeli's used suppressed Ruger 10/22's as a less than lethal form of riot control.
Unfortuntely, those 10/22's turned out to be lethal after all and there was talk fo their use being discontinued.

[TC]

XL, you could be right.
This could be a .22 with the barrel cut down and threaded for a can. The man is resting his palm on the magazine and it surely looks like the original Enfield mag. As far as I know the cadet rifles were all single shots and the original mags were either removed before being issued to the NCC or kept in place for demonstration/drill at NCC or police academies.

Whatever the case might be this photo is a BIG BIG surprise to me.
Never ever heard of the any Indian police unit using .22 for riot control and that too with a suppressor - NEVER EVER
(lathi, tear gas and rubber bullets, exactly in that order of progression, are subscribed for riot control in the police manuals in India. Water cannons are a luxury in most cities with water supply being on the low. So only a few of these were bought from private vendors)

Going by my experience and instincts I can only say that that this man, his gear and the entire get up are only telling me that there is something more to what meets the eye.
XL your discovery is forcing me to dig deeper.


TC

[brihacharan]

The way this thread is taking off I feel.....
Between xl_target & TC we will be treated to a discovery & dissertation which could aptly come under the caption....
"Unraveling the mystery behind the enigmatic 0.303"
Come on guys - We're waiting!!!
Briha

[winnie_the_pooh]

That rifle is meant to fire rubber bullets.

[mrinmoy mukherjee]

There was also a modern lee Enfield know ishapore 7.62 nato lee Enfield. Which probably used by the Indian army in 70s