Shotgun buying advice for a newbie (in the UK)

[Grumpy]

"i hope steel can be used in a beretta or the other italian/ jap/belgian guns.
what about the wood?
is walnut a standard wood in all good guns?"

I presume that you mean steel shot ?

Steel shot can only be used in guns that have been built to handle it - as far as Berettas are concerned that means most of their guns over the last ten years or so. Most new and nearly new game type Italian O/Us are rated for steel shot. The only Belgian guns you might be interested in are Browning A1s and I doubt that you`ll find one that is rated for steel shot within your budget.
You don`t need to worry about steel shot anyway because a ) it is utter shite and b) in the UK non-lead shot is only mandatory over wetlands - for Duck and Geese shooting in other words. If you have to use non-lead shot you can always use Bismuth or Tungsten Matrix ( Tungsten Polymer ) shot. The cost might provoke a heart attack though.
`Steel` shot is actually powdered iron and is beneath contempt. It`s cheap but that`s all it has going for it.
Yes Walnut is pretty well universally used on European shotguns. Only cheap guns and the lesser Baikals, etc are fitted with timber other than Walnut. Cheaper rifles - even not so cheap - can be fitted with pretty crummy wood.

[shooter]

thanks grumpy.
sorry for the late response was busy shopping.
or at least trying.
saw the following on fri:
(Wont name the shop for reasons that will come later.)

classic doubles sporter 30" 575.
i have seen classic doubles elsewhere too- any opinion/ comments?

miroku 7000 s3 28" 775.

saw another 30" classic doubles.
did all the things you recommended - inspect 'fire' with snap caps in place.
the second classic doubles 'vibrated' strangely- on closer inspection, there was a crack running across the grip- the from the trigger guard to the comb.
when i asked, he agreed it had been repaired.
this had not been mentioned when i asked about the price etc.
in fact i was told that as both the guns had the same specs, they cost the same.
i think it was a bit unprofessional.
when i tell someone im new i think they should be more helpful than usual.

litts was a good experience.
Adrian was very helpful, understanding but apologised for not having a lot of guns in stock.
saw a 30" browning 425 grade 1, 2.75 in chamber 850
rizzini highlander, case hardened sideplate sporter second hand 1300
rizzini new sporter 30" 995.

2 club guns for sale.

miroku3000 30" sporter no bead, rib dented at 2 places- one touching the upperbarrel, lots of scratches- £400

rizzini a bit better club gun- 250
to be fair, he did warn about the condition beforehand and said they would repair the damage before selling them to us.
all the above were m/c
we placed an 'order' whereby we told him about our specs and budget and he said he would be happy to order a few matching guns from the shop at newcastle and give us a call so we could visit him next week.
he said most of his clientale at rbsg were into high end game guns (of which there was a good collection.) so they didnt have many sporters.
he also said any 30" sporters they stocked sold fast as they were in demand ( he sold a 525 grade 1 a couple of hours before we went there)

he also recommended a bettinsoli to my friend and me.
he told me a lot of other trivia which was quite useful and gave me a bit more insight.
will be happy to mention it in my next post ( not for ur benefit but for other newcomers.)
thanks

[Grumpy]

It`s pretty obvious that Litts Royal Berkshire don`t carry anything like as many guns as they do at their main Newport branch - which is a shame.
Offering a gun with a split stock is extremely unprofessional as you say.
Classic Doubles are good guns - the story is, if memory serves me right, that when Winchester ceased production of the 101 models a group of enthusiasts arranged for the design to be built at a Japanese factory under the name `Classic Doubles`. Classic Doubles ceased trading some years ago and the guns are no longer made.
It`s a similar story to the Remington 3200 being reincarnated as the Krieghoff K32 - and later models - ........ only not so successfully infortunately !
I`m trying to think of some other dealers close to London - it`s not my territory unfortunately. You could try ringing these and asking where they are ( ! )

May of London, Buckhurst Hill, Essex. Browning/Beretta/Miroku/Bettinsoli/Winchester etc. 0208 504 5946;

Eastern Sporting, Chnelmsford, Essex. Browning ( including VERY high-end guns ) Beretta, Miroku, Bettinsoli. 01245 477600.

[shooter]

have had a word with both of mays, even been visiting their website.. .
will get in touch with eastern.
what adrian told me was that the first factor that decides the gun is the budget of course and a newcomer will not notice a difference between an expensive gn and a (relatively) cheap one.
ditto for barrel length( 28v 30 inches), balance, weight difference of a few ounces etc etc.
but as one gets better at shooting, he begins to appreciate the value of 'pointability'- 30" barrel, balance- swing, the 'smoothness' of a swing.
comb height affecting your mount etc.
he said it also largely depended on how serious one was about shooting and the frequency of shooting.
which i infer means that if one shoots 'seriously', frequently, he shall improve more quickly than some one who shoots say once 2 months.

which should have been quite obvious to me.
it is the same in any sport. the equipment makes no difference to a rank newcomer but as one improves, it begins to play a more important role and more importantly, one begins to understand and appreciate the difference it makes.

grumpy i have noticed, you have never critised any gun outright. is that because most guns on the market have a basic standard or that i have not asked you about any 'bad' brands?(the litts guy was also like you.)
some people say flatly that if i buy a laurona, bettinsoli or even a browning prestige series, i would be 'throwing' my 'money away'. is it because of these peoples bias?

as i said before, i am asking questions that come to a beginners mind.- so heres one that my mate asked me.

what are the disadvantages of buying a cheap gun?(his budget is 'as low as possible')
he says he cant shoot anyways, so even if he buys £75 o/u,28", f/c, d/t, non ej. baikal and practices with it, he can only improve.
he says he would rather save money and spend it on lessons than spend money on a gun.
he wanted to know if he wished to shoot once a month or less, 25- 50 shots at a time, but just wanted to be a 'decent shot', didnt want to compete/shoot game, what was the disadvantage of a cheap gun.?
how can a 'bad gun' affect stance, mount and swing?
i was at a loss of words as im not an expert.
one 'coach' told him to 'forget baikals' as 'they were not good guns'

this is not about baikal brand but you get the drift.
thanks

[Grumpy]

I could cry.........I was several paragraphs into responding to your post when I inadvertently hit a key at the left side of the keyboard and wiped the lot ! Sob !
OK, let`s start again.
Who is Adrian ? He`s the guy at Litts, yes ?
He talks a whole lot of sense - try to remember it.
There`s little point in criticising a particular brand or model of gun because, being involved on the gun trade it would be unprofessional of me to do so and because what suits me might not suit you - and vice versa. Quality however is something that can sometimes be seen but more often is a characteristic that is `felt`. It`s much more difficult for a beginner to appreciate quality but it can be learnt - very rapidly. Certain manufacturers build quality into their guns - FN Browning being a specific example. I like and appreciate guns with low profile actions like Berettas but while the 682 and SOs really do feel like quality the 686/687s don`t - don`t to ME ! Browning B25 models are definitely not low profile but they feel `right` - and quality - immediately I pick one up.
Vikram has been to three auctions with me now and I can guarantee that after he has checked through everything the gun he will go back to look at most closely will be a Browning B25. I`ve even asked him what a particular gun is that he`s pointing and posing with and he`s replied that he didn`t know - and he genuinely didn`t - but it was a B25 when we`ve checked. He can tell - and really likes - the `feel` of Browning B25. Mirokus and Browning 325/425/525s are effectively B25 copies but don`t `feel` right - or quality - to me ........ or to Vikram. I reckonthat when Vikram comes to buy his first shotgun it will be a Browning A1 sporterised Trap gun. Incidentally the old Miroku 3800s always felt ( and still feel ) right - and like quality - to me.
As it happens there are plenty of guns for one reaon or another I don`t like but I try not to inflict my opinion on others........unless I consider that it is justified.
Adrian is correct in everything he says but that needs taking a little further: Whilst the newcomer/novice can`t appreciate the nuances of gun feel or how well a gun handles they to tend to grow out of a first gun very quickly as they gain experience. For this reason I always suggest that they buy a secondhand gun first so that they don`t lose a pile of money. I believe however that it makes sense to get a gun that adequately represents the branch of the sport that he/she intends to pursue - if Sporting Clays then a Sporter. If Trap then a Trap gun. If game shooting then a game gun. If someone intends to shoot a bit of everything then I maintain that a game gun is the best choice because whilst a game gun makes a fair to good sporter and a reasonable Trap/Skeet gun the reverse is not the case. A Sporter is reasonable at whatever discipline but a Trap or Skeet gun makes a poor sporter and a crap game gun.
I like the feel and handling of the new Bettinsoli Diamond Line Sporters ( they don`t feel like `quality` but at the price that`s hardly surprising ) but can`t recommend them to the newcomer if he/she has any intention of upgrading in the near future because the depreciation will be dreadful. As I`ve already pointed-out, there were used Bettinsoli Diamond Line Sporters on guntrader.co.uk from £350 - thats a huge drop from the RRP and over 40% from the discounted price of £595. Note aso that that is the used RETAIL price - not the bought in or trade in price which will be lower. A used Bettinsoli Diamond Line Sporter is an excellent buy for the newcomer in my opinion.
If somebody intends to indulge in most game shooting with just occasional clays then there`s no problem with a Baikal........or even a Laurona because the stocks - and to an extent the ribs - are primarily set up as per a game gun......maybe a semi-sporter. No problem if the gun is going to be kept but a thorough pain in the ar*e if the shooter intends to change it for a Sporter because the new gun will have to be `learnt` - effectively cancelling much of what has been already learnt. Usually one changes from a Sporter to a better Sporter. not from a game gun to a Sporter. Some people make that transition very easily, others have real problems which is why I discourage the idea of buying any old gun as a first gun.
Baikals are not bad guns or badly made guns. They are good guns that are poorly finished. Incredibly tough and with good barrels. Because they`ve always been cheap to buy when new they are often considered poor guns and depreciate very badly. Bettinsolis have the same problem because they ( along with Baikal and E.Rizzini ) were known as cheap mail-order guns back in the days when we were still allowed mail order. That `cheap` reputation has obviously stuck with them to a large extent judging by the low prices of the used guns. Hopefully that will change over time. The best way to maintain prices is for the distributors to discourage discounting.
I`ve seen comments on IFG about Indian shotguns that have Spanish made barrels which makes them much better than if they had Indian barrels: All I can say is that the Indian barrels must be really cr*p because cheap Spanish barrels were pretty cr*ppy !
The Spanish have made some good SxSs for many years but their O/Us were never that clever. Spanish guns generally have improved greatly but they still don`t make any decent competition O/US. The Lambers can be pretty good but are very inconsistent - the old Spanish problem - and the Kamens were truly excellent ( and expensive ! ) ..... but no longer made. Currently the Zabala game O/Us are very good value for money but their competition O/Us are nothing special.
ALL IN MY OPINION OF COURSE !

[shooter]

thanks a lot grumpy.
and sorry about the duplication of work.
this certainly puts a lot of things in perspective.
and yes i read your posts ( i think there are at least 2 where you have replied to shahid) about the quality of spanish and another one explaining why they are not consistant.
another question (the answer may be quite obvious to you.)
is it advisable to go for the best a beginner can afford ?
or is it best to spend less and then upgrade?
i know you have indirectly answered question before put please tell me.
for example if a person was new to cricket, i wouldnt advise him to buy an expensive bat initially. i would tell him to buy a good bat, learn the strokes and then go for a better one.
i know it is a poor example so plz bear with me.
have never handled a b25 but i agree with you in that the 'feel' of a diamond line is good.
better than a few classic doubles, rizzini(s/h),laurona and a few mirokus i have handled.
while we are on this topic.
the 'feel' of 2 diff guns of the same make model can also vary (thats what i feel).
i cant explain why but some just 'feel right'
for eg 2 classic doubles, same model one felt good, other cr@p, same for rizzini and even bettinsoli.

i felt embaressed to admit that all berettas didnt feel right and a bettinsoli felt bettter as im a beginner/novice/lack knowledge and thought thats not possible as a beretta is a BERETTA.
all i know is that when i first picked up a H&H 375 mag, i didnt know what h&H was, but as a kid i knew that gun was something 'special'.
as you said, we cant describe it but it is a strong feeling- the question is, how accurate that feeling is in a beginner like me.

please tell me what diff can shifting from a narrow rib on a game gun to a wide ribbed sporter make?

adrian (litts) also told me a lot of people purposely remove the bead on the rib.
i personally also wonder if a bead is needed as i feel more comfortable shooting without it as i dont need it for aiming anyways.(maybe my peripheral vision perception is not fine tuned as yet.)
thanks

[Grumpy]

Some people can identify quality with no or very little training or experience. Some people learn to appreciate quality. Some people couldn`t identify or appreciate quality if it was shoved up their noses.
I believe that it is best for the newcomer to buy a gun of reasonable quality and ability but not to spend too much - c. £300-400. Most people will change that gun for a better one within a year anyway. It`s very rare that they keep their first gun however the second gun tends to last a long time.
B.Rizzini game guns - those of the last few years - are super guns. The Caesar Guerrinis are equally good - if not better. That`s hardly surprising as the Guerrini brothers worked for their Uncle Battista Rizzini and the older brother was B.Rizzinis head gunmaker and responsible for the designs. E.Rizzinis are a different company and NOWHERE near as good - There are at least five different Rizzini companies which are nothing to do with each other.
The competition guns I rate are the usual Browning B25s /Beretta 682s, DT10, ASEs, and SOs/Perazzis/Gamba Daytonas/Blaser F3/Kemen KM4/Zoli Kronos. Below that select group are a whole raft of guns by Browning/Beretta/B.Rizzini( and MacNab )/Caesar Guerrini/Fabarm/Marocchi/Miroku/Winchester - and Bettinsoli - and on and on. The Bettinsolis might be good value for money but they aren`t Beretta 686/687s.....or B.Rizzinis, etc.
The best deal of the whole lot is a used Beretta 682. You can`t touch a used 682 for value for money. There isn`t a better competition gun, only more expensive guns. The Zoli Kronos comes second as regards value for money and is, I believe, the least expensive new gun in the list above. Because the Zoli is the lastest addition to the list depreciation might be rather more than most although it does seem to be holding up pretty well.
I don`t shoot competitive clays anymore so don`t worry about clays guns any more. I might look out for a ( discontinued ) Beretta ASE though - which is a sort of super de-luxe 682 or hand assembled DT10. A beautiful gun......but the prices will have to drop rather more than they have. I quite fancy a Gamba Daytona as well......or maybe another Perrazzi........and then again I probably won`t bother.

[shooter]

thanks grumpy,
your first sentence reminded me of the quote,
"some people are born great, some achieve greatness, some have greatness thrust upon them."
pun intended?
at the risk of sounding repetetive, plz lemme ask:

please tell me what diff can shifting from a narrow rib on a game gun to a wide ribbed sporter make?

adrian (litts) also told me a lot of people purposely remove the bead on the rib.
i personally also wonder if a bead is needed as i feel more comfortable shooting without it as i dont need it for aiming anyways.(maybe my peripheral vision perception is not fine tuned as yet.)
thanks

[Risala]

Shooter,

With the selection you have in the UK,the home of Shotty's just buy your first gun on an an impulse.
Dont bother about any names or makes,if you have a budget keep it in mind and the type you want trap/skeet or game.

Then let lightening strike,irrespective of the make just pick up the piece.
You will will enjoy the exp for the rest of your life.

They are all good guns in any case.

Dont go into too many details,you will just confuse yourself,and miss out on the zing of buying it the first tme around.

Sanjay

[shooter]

thanks sanjay.
i agree with you.
as mentioned earlier, along with my queries, i am also treating this thread as a "beginners faq" kind of a thing not just for my benefit but also so that other beginners in the future can get the answers in one thread. 9thenks to grumpy for his infinite patience with these questions.)
plz keep reading and post frequently

[Grumpy]

They aren`t all good guns though......that`s one of the problems.

I suppose you might say that the roots of my comment on quality originated with the `greatness` quote ........ but it isn`t a pun.

There isn`t much problem with transferring from a gun with a narrow game rib to one with a wider rib.........A wider rib is generally easier to use but the point is that you shouldn`t be looking at the rib - or the bead - anyway. You should be looking at the bird - feathered or Clay - and pointing the muzzles of the gun.
Sometimes a shooter will benefit from a coloured `Truglo` type bead as it can aid concentration by taking the eyes focus off the muzzles and onto the bird so making shooting more instinctive. That might seem contrary to common sense but it can work ....... a case of `more is less.

[Mack The Knife]

thanks sanjay.
i agree with you.

Well, I don't. That 'zing' of buying a first gun wouldn't last very long if it did not suit you. Be patient and buy yourself something suitable that fits both budget and usage. Keep that resale price in mind as well.

Incidentally, have you checked Grumpy's post to me in the shotgun section where he outlines what to look for when buying a used gun?

Mack The Knife

[Grumpy]

And I agree with you Mack The Knife - mess up what you get as your first gun and it will badly affect your shooting AND your pleasure.
Apart from anything else the purchase of a first gun is usually a major event and one that you should enjoy. You might not keep the gun long but whatever you get as your second gun, the experience is never as enjoyable or exciting as the first.
Of course if you buy a pigs ear it`ll possibly be such a traumatically bad experience that you abandon shooting altogether !

[Risala]

In my case once I had zeroed in,Grumpy's check list made it an easy decision.

You are lucky Shooter,dont need to take the list along just take Grumps
and you shall have yourself a good gun.

Sanjay

[Mack The Knife]

In my case once I had zeroed in,Grumpy's check list made it an easy decision.

Apples and oranges, Sanjay.

This is about buying a shotgun in countries where you can pick and choose, not India.

Mack The Knife