WW2 Submachine Guns

[xl_target]

Every year in August, a local gun store in this area holds a firearms extravaganza. I first posted about it here
Last year CK Kalyan came down to attend this event.

This year, I went with a co-worker who also loves guns. We had a great time and I did get to fire some unique fire arms. As mentioned before there is a machine gun area where you can fire a variety of full auto weapons.
As some of you know I am a big WW2 fan and military history buff. Since I had fired a number of full auto weapons at past shows, I opted this time to be a bit more specific in my choice of weapons.

As luck would have it, they had some WW2 sub machine guns this time. I chose to fire three of the more common and widely used SMG's.
We started with the Axis weapon and ended up with the Allied SMG's.

SMG #1 - The famed German MP40

The MP38 and MP 40 (MP designates Maschinenpistole.) were submachine guns developed in Nazi Germany and used extensively by Fallschirmjäger (paratroopers), platoon and squad leaders, and other troops during World War II. Both weapons were often erroneously called the Schmeisser, despite Hugo Schmeisser's non-involvement in their design and production

.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP_40


Maschinenpistole 40. Caliber: 9X19 Parabellum (9mm Luger). Rate of Fire - 500/550 rounds per minute.


SMG#2 - The US M3 "Grease Gun"

The M3 was an American .45-caliber submachine gun adopted for U.S. Army service on 12 December 1942, as the United States Submachine Gun, Cal. .45, M3.[6] The M3 was chambered for the same .45 round fired by the Thompson submachine gun, but was cheaper to produce, lighter, and more accurate.[6] The M3 was commonly referred to as the "Grease Gun" or simply "the Greaser," owing to its visual similarity to the mechanic's tool.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M3_submachine_gun


United States Submachine Gun, Cal. .45, M3. Rate of Fire - 450 rounds per minute


SMG #3 - Russian PPSH 41

The PPSh-41 (Pistolet-Pulemyot Shpagina; Russian: Пистолет-пулемёт Шпагина; "Shpagin machine pistol"); is a Soviet submachine gun designed by Georgi Shpagin as a cheap, simplified alternative to the PPD-40. Common nicknames are Pe-Pe-Sha from its three-letter prefix and Papasha (Russian: папаша), meaning daddy.

The PPSh was a magazine-fed selective fire submachine gun using an open-bolt, blowback action. Made largely of stamped steel, it could be loaded with either a box or drum magazine, and fired the 7.62×25mm Tokarev pistol round.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPSh-41


The PPSh-41 (Pistolet-Pulemyot Shpagina). Caliber 7.62X25 Tokarev. Rate of Fire - 900 rounds per minute

Here is the video of me firing the three SMG's
[youtube][/youtube]

The PPSH ejects straight upwards and the empties were bouncing off the roof of the shed.
So the other guy was holding his hand over my head as I did not have a hat on.

[farook]

Xl Target great video. Was wondering which LMG is on the right. Can we get to see that one in action as well....

[xl_target]

Xl Target great video. Was wondering which LMG is on the right. Can we get to see that one in action as well....

That is a SAW (Squad automatic weapon) or M249 LMG that is made by FNH USA for the US armed Forces.
My friend who was with me fired it but (as I was the cameraman at the time) I screwed up, ... there is no video of the event. Sorry about that.


The M249 SAW Light Machine Gun.
FN Web Site

[farook]

looks delicious I must say...




These guys seem to be having a lot to offer

[ckkalyan]

Hey xl_target, very nice experience - full auto AND the legendary MP40 - beautiful! Not much of a recoil at all! The familiar stutter from the WWII movies still rings in my ears - similar RPM as the Sten.

The Grease Gun - reminds me so much of the Sten - similar circumstances when developed, I suppose...such simplicity!


The British Sten - so simple that it could have been made in a garage! 500 RPM

The Russian Tokarev was surely Rasputin - it was trying to get away from you - what a high rate of fire!

I can vouch for the SMG experience at Ahlman's from personal experience - pure, unadulterated joy!

Thanks very much for sharing xl_target

[xl_target]

Thanks for sharing that information about eh Sten, CK.
I wasn't aware that the Sten had a similar slow rate of fire.
I was always under the impression that it had a much higher rate of fire.

[farook]

Something I had to share...

[Sakobav]

Folks few more from US arsenal
A lesser known Reising US submachine gun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M50_Reising

and the famous grease gun M 3 submachine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M3_submachine_gun

[timmy]

The British Sten - so simple that it could have been made in a garage! 500 RPM

Actually, the Sten was made in garages, or in similarly simple manufacturing conditions. They were made by the underground resistance movements in Denmark (about 1000 Stens manufactured there), Norway (about 800 manufactured), Poland (about 1300 manufactured), and undoubtedly in other locations as well. The only really tricky parts to manufacture were the barrels and bolts, which required machining. However, in Norway for example, even these parts could be made without the use of sophisticated machine tools. The Norwegians would make Sten barrels with a crude rifling tool similar to the wooden mechanism that was used to rifle those barrels made for the famous Kentucky Rifle. Apparently, some Norwegians had seen this process, which was accomplished by using a drum with a spiral groove corresponding with the rifling twist, which controlled the twist of a wooden dowel that entered the bore of the barrel. A small tool steel cutter was placed in the end of this dowel and repeated pull-twist passes of this cutter would produce the rifling grooves in the bore.

One interesting developmental aspect of manufacturing Stens was to stamp holes in the receiver when it was a flat sheet, and then roll and weld this sheet into tubular shape. This eliminated the need to machine and drill these holes. Sights were simple affairs, welded to the weapon. Some resistance Stens were even used without the benefit of a rifled barrel! The Sten required only 48 individual parts in its simplest iteration.

Just like in the debacle of Operation Barbarossa in the Soviet Union, where the Soviets responded to the tremendous loss of weaponry by making simply manufactured PPsh 41 submachine guns, The British accommodated their loss of equipment at Dunkirk by making the simply manufactured Sten in simple circumstances, as well. The Sten was light and very amenable to being carried by paratroopers and easily concealed for clandestine use by special forces, as well as resistance forces. The use of the enemy's (German) ammunition was also an advantage. It was said that twice as much 9mm ammunition could be carried by a combatant, compared to the 45 ACP.

The Thompson was a very well-made weapon, but this came at a tremendous price. The American manufacturer required hard currency from the UK as payment for the very expensive Thompson, which required a great deal of machining operations to support its silly and useless "Blish System" locking mechanism (which really didn't work-the Thompson was effectively a blowback action). While many British troops appreciated the Thompson, the great number of arms required by Britain could not support the Thompson's low production rate or drain on the UK's hard currency supply.

The Sten also lent itself very well to silenced operation, which even American special forces appreciated into the 70s. It was said that the only problem with suppressed Stens was the "clack-clack-clack" of the bolt slamming closed.

Stens were used by both sides in the Israeli-Arab conflicts of 1948, but it can be said that the Sten was vital to Israel's bid for independence and was widely used in that conflict.

Like many automatic weapons, the Sten operated from an open bolt and slamming the weapon about or dropping it could cause the bolt to be jarred back, which could chamber a round and fire it inadvertently. Also, when the bolt was open and the cocking handle placed in the safety notch, an impact or fall could dislodge it, causing an accidental discharge. Users of the Sten developed a method of carrying the weapon by gripping the receiver, which could prevent the bolt from opening or closing -- a help, but not a solution to inadvertent discharge.

The Sten was designed to use the same double column magazine as its predecessor, the British Lanchester, and the magazines of that weapon's parent, the German MP 28/II "Schmeisser." These magazines were often a source of jamming, as a double column staggered magazine can be sensitive to feeding problems.

However, the low cost and simple manufacture of the Sten made it a very useful and important weapon of WW2 and after. I personally think that they were and are a great firearms development, even though they are a far cry from what we would consider and admire as firearms aficionados.

[ckkalyan]

Thanks for that background on the Sten timmy - glad you caught that garage bit; what an amazing creation, literally from scrap!

[youtube][/youtube]
Small Arms Limited, Long Branch Arsenal, Canada made Sten Mk II in 1944 for the Chinese to fight the Japanese - WOW!?

Listen to the chatter, xl_target doesnt it sound pretty close to the Schmeisser? Distinct but pretty close, slight difference huh? Watching WWII movies I could imagine being able to identify German and Brit SMG fire.

Thanks farook, ngrewal - good stuff!

[timmy]

The Mk III Sten took all of 6 hours of labor to make, and cost the British Government US$10.99 to make. Even allowing for inflation, that is still only US$151.55 in today's dollars. Of course, we still need to add the cost of frivolous lawsuits to this figure to compare it to today's guns… :-/