Ithaca 1911A1 & Berreta 92

[mundaire]

well its not proper thread and i dont know how to split them. i want to ask Abhijit about the photo of Armed & Friendly on news section. the guy who have two pistols in hand, which gun is in his left hand. it looks like a colt commander or sometimes its look like a spanish made copy(lot of brands, Star is most popular). i like colt commander very much but have seen only one which was not for sale and it was .38 super for which ammo is a very hard to find.

Mash,

The gun in question is a US Army issue Colt 1911A1 in .45 ACP (mfd. date is circa 1942 as per a serial no. check I did a while back). It's wearing after market Hogue (black) rubber grips, and the original parkerised finish (long gone), has been replaced by a standard "hot" reblue...

The person holding the gun is Sanjay. The other gun (held in right hand) is his Beretta in .32 ACP

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[mashh1]

thanks abhijeet but as far as i read on this forum.45 acp is a pb in your country, is there any grandfather clause in law. how much its current value will on ur side.
eljefe i did not see any gaurd around here with such a costly gun, mostly are local made copies and current legislation allows only 12 gauge pump actions to gaurds. may be that gun belong to the jewler himself ang gaurd is his retainer. i see a kit for AR 15 in the market with new weaver rail grip and light mount accessoaries to convert old model. yes u said the right calibre and i did not mention any ban lifing. there is still complete ban on semi auto .222 & ,223 & 44stg. there is copmlete lack of organised efforts on part of common shooter, and political people can get licence for full auto weapons if they want but they are usually cancelled by next govt. as far as security gaurds gun mentioned, average company charges 5000/ to 6500/ per gaurd for 12 hours and all guns are local made i have seen.

[mundaire]

thanks abhijeet but as far as i read on this forum.45 acp is a pb in your country, is there any grandfather clause in law. how much its current value will on ur side.

Hi Mash,

You are correct .45 ACP is indeed a PB in India. This gun was earlier in my Granddad's name and I got it on my license on "transfer of family heirloom" basis - one of the few "reasons" for granting a PB license. As you can imagine getting a PB license is not easy here, therefore the value of the gun would be relatively lower (as compared to a similar condition NPB pistol)... Also ammunition is not easily available and therefore expensive...

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[Grumpy]

The Ithaca 1911A1 WOULD have had collector value had it not been refinished but as it has been polished the value is as an ordinary 1911A1.
Abhijeet, Itaca was one conpany I forgot when going through the list of manufacturers of WWII Government I911A1s: Colt, Remington Rand, Itaca, Union Switch & Signal and Singer Sewing Machine Co. The Singer versions are by far the most rare with only about 500 being built. Remington UMC did not make 1911A1s during WWII as I suggested.
WWI 1911 examples were built by Colt, Remington UMC, Springfield Armoury ( the Governments Springfield Armoury ) and North American Arms Co of Quebec ( very, very rare. )
I don`t know who built the .455 1911 for the British except that they were US made. 17,500 in .45 ACP and .455 Webley were shipped under the British contract followed by 10,000 for the RAF, all in .455 Webley.
Incidentally 500 1911s were supplied to the Norwegian Government during WWI and a licence was granted permitting the Norwegians to build the pistol under licence - which they did. They also produced about another 1,000 in WWII when under NAZI occupation/orders.

[mundaire]

Grumps, I did not even realise that it would have been originally parkerised till the time you told me about this being the standard military finish! As I'd mentioned by the time I got the gun it had already been reblued (at least once) and that finish was also almost gone...

Nazi stamped 1911's??!! Learn something new here everyday!

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[Grumpy]

Abhijeet, what is the serial number of your 1911A1 ? If you don`t want to post it here email me with the number.

[Sakobav]

Grumpy

Another trivia on COlts in UK service

Coincidently in current American Rifleman there is article about Colts made in .45ACP and .455 Webley for UK as part of Lend-lease both in WW I and II. In 1905 competition for Royal Navy’s auto was between Colt and Webley MKI or II pistol. With Webley adjudged “ found superior to Colt in every respect” and it was the first pistol adopted by British forces. Main issue with Colt ( per selection committee) was drop test on hard and soft ground, when pistol were dropped from heights and “Colt hammer frequently fell upon impact...” In Service Colt pistol proved to be a better choice than Webley. Its stated that few were also sold to public by Army and Navy cooperatives, R.H.W. Henderson of the Royal Dragoons (Churchill had one in 1916). During WWII per the article, RAF was biggest users and per one of the picture pistol was made by Colt MFG Co. Total number of pistols imported during WWI and II was in excess of 50000. Article has this picture of Lord Lovat with Colt in webbing holster, this gent took his hunting rifle "Winchester" into action. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Fras ... Lord_Lovat

Cheers

[Grumpy]

Navi, I don`t want to appear pedantic but the Colt pistol used in that British Navy Trial was NOT the 1911 ( the clue is in the dates ) but, I believe, the Model 1905.
The late Simon Fraser, 15th Lord Lovat DSO MC was one of the most famous Commandos of WWII. As a Brigadier he commanded the 1st Special Service Brigade when they landed on Sword Beach on D-Day. He was reputed to have been carrying an old Winchester rifle along with his revolver.
( If you`ve ever seen the film `The Longest Day`he is the nutcase in a white sweater. He also took along his personal piper to pipe his troops ashore - against regulations. )
Articles from his estate were sold at the September 2006 Holts auction: His Webley MKIV .455 Service Revolver; An Enfield .38 No 2 MK1* Service Revolver converted to MK 1 specification - the actual pistol he carried on D-Day; A Beretta Mod 948 .22 lr semi auto pistol; A Colt .32 `New Pocket` Revolver and a Mannlicher Schoenauer Mod 1892 .256" ( 6.5mm ) takedown rifle.
No Winchester rifle.........and no Colt 1911.

[Sakobav]

Grumpy


Thanks for the information, I stand corrected it was 1905 Colt, a very different gun. But then again in 1911 through Vickers Colt submitted their pistol for evaluation against Webley .455 autoloader for Royal Navy trials. Article states even though “improved safety features of the new model had fulfilled the conditions set forth by the RN, but alas, Colt was found to compare “most unfavorably”. The Webley was already on fast track for adoption by Navy since 1910 trials by both the SAC and Chief Inspector of Small Arms. In 1911, the Webley was “found superior to the Colt in ever respect”….. In service Mark In wasn’t superior design that RN had thought, and Colt hadn’t been forgotten.”

Article doesn’t mention that Lord Lovat’s pistol was personal one but picture caption does state “ a hunting rifle” and wikipedia identified that gun as Winchester. Based on your information both the Rifleman article and Wikipedia information is incorrect. Nevertheless this pistol was used by Royal services.

Per article considerable number of pistols procured between 1939-41 were allocated to Strategic Operations Executive (SOE) covert operations.

Again quoting “To differentiate between guns, .45 ACP Government models had a swathe of red paint applied to top of their slides, wehereon “.45 Rimless” was stenciled in Black. During WW II In all 39, 592 Model 1911 and 1911A1s were received through Lend lease”

Best

[Sakobav]

Grumps, I did not even realise that it would have been originally parkerised till the time you told me about this being the standard military finish! As I'd mentioned by the time I got the gun it had already been reblued (at least once) and that finish was also almost gone...

Nazi stamped 1911's??!! Learn something new here everyday!

Cheers!
Abhijeet

Here is the link to Norwegian Colt Pistol and as you said never knew Nazi connection with Colt pistol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kongsberg_Colt