Big Bore Rifle questions - FAO Mehul & Shutzen

[shooter]

hey shutzen and mehul
i want to know more about rifle shooting from a renowned shot.
i am uninformed.
the only thing i know is to line both sights to the target exhale twothirds and squeeze the trigger gently.

i also realise that even this might be wrong and it would be comparable to antonio benderas' dialouge in zorro when the senior zorro askes him what he knows about sword play and he replies that the pointed end goes into the other man.
instead of wasting your time on this could both of you please answer my basic questions:

1 what are the basic categories in rifle shooting viz bore and range type (rim/centre fire), position of body(benchrest/prone/standing)

2 how many shots does one fire?

3 how is the scoring done?

4 how big is the bulls eye in diff. competitions.

5 what is an average score that is considered good, good enough to be renowned shot in india/ good enought to be renowned outside/ good enough to win an international medal.

i have more questions and will ask you once i know the answers to these.

and please try give me simple/basic answers so that the 'uninformed' can understand.
thanks

[shooter]

if you wish, you could answer them in another thread.

[shutzen]

hey shutzen and mehul
i want to know more about rifle shooting from a renowned shot.
i am uninformed.

well HI! shooter we all r when we start but over a period of time depending on your passion for the sport and after being xposed to the system and the babus u smarten up heres my one rupee worht - Mehul can chip in with his $

the only thing i know is to line both sights to the target exhale twothirds and squeeze the trigger gently.

well u r getting there already -

1 what are the basic categories in rifle shooting viz bore and range type (rim/centre fire), position of body
(benchrest/prone/standing)

In both rimfire and centre fire there r two types of matches conducted in India as per ISSF rules:
Rimfire : 50 meter prone and 3 position
centrefire: 300 meter prone and 3 position

In prone position u lie prone on the ground facing ur target with a sling around ur left arm attached to the forend of ur rifle and the rifle rests on ur left hand palm and u shoot. In standing u shoot standing straight without sling. in kneeling u have the sling attached and shoot resting ur elbow on ur front knee facing the target

2 how many shots does one fire?

Both Rimfire & centre fire prone : u fire 60 record shots & "Unlimited" sighters in 1 hour and 15 min. the unlimited is a misnomer as the time taken to fire the sighter is part of the match time only so u see ppl firing anywhere from 8-20 sighter shots.

3 position : Rimfire and centre fire free rifle : 40 shots each from prone , standing and kneeling position in a approx 3 hrs.
In standard rifle u shoot 40 shots in each postion in 2 hours

3 how is the scoring done?

The targets have the scoring rings printed on em and whichever ring ur shot hits is your score out of 10 for that shot.
Since u fire 60 record shots for the comp the score is out of 600.

4 how big is the bulls eye in diff. competitions.

50 M rifle its 10mm the size is as below - do ur math

10 Ring 10.4 mm (±0.1 mm ) 5 Ring 90.4 mm (±0.5 mm )
9 Ring 26.4 mm (±0.2 mm ) 4 Ring 106.4 mm (±0.5 mm )
8 Ring 42.4 mm (±0.2 mm ) 3 Ring 122.4 mm (±0.5 mm )
7 Ring 58.4 mm (±0.5 mm ) 2 Ring 138.4 mm (±0.5 mm )
6 Ring 74.4 mm (±0.5 mm ) 1 Ring 154.4 mm (±0.5 mm )


300 M rifle its 100 mm the size is as below:

10 Ring 100 mm (±0.5 mm ) 5 Ring 600 mm (±3.0 mm )
9 Ring 200 mm (±1.0 mm ) 4 Ring 700 mm (±3.0 mm )
8 Ring 300 mm (±1.0 mm ) 3 Ring 800 mm (±3.0 mm )
7 Ring 400 mm (±3.0 mm ) 2 Ring 900 mm (±3.0 mm )
6 Ring 500 mm (±3.0 mm ) 1 Ring 1000 mm (±3.0 mm )

5 what is an average score that is considered good, good enough to be renowned shot in india/ good enought to be renowned outside/ good enough to win an international medal.

Now with the new rule comming in :
Prone
50 Meter - 560
300 meters - 475

3 position is diff just chk the match book for it
Winning medals is relative - right now wud b premature for u to think on those lines. U cud get one at 580 also and might not get it at 597 too... International - Forget it;)

i have more questions and will ask you once i know the answers to these.

no problems

and please try give me simple/basic answers so that the 'uninformed' can understand.
thanks

I hope the above r clear nough BTW dl the match book from the NRAI website and u will find the MQS and other details of the matches frm it.

[cottage cheese]

"shooter";p="21839"]hey shutzen and mehul
i want to know more about rifle shooting from a renowned shot.
i am uninformed.

well HI! shooter we all r when we start but over a period of time depending on your passion for the sport and after being xposed to the system and the babus u smarten up heres my one rupee worht - Mehul can chip in with his $

the only thing i know is to line both sights to the target exhale twothirds and squeeze the trigger gently.

well u r getting there already -


1 what are the basic categories in rifle shooting viz bore and range type (rim/centre fire), position of body
(benchrest/prone/standing)

In both rimfire and centre fire there r two types of matches conducted in India as per ISSF rules:
Rimfire : 50 meter prone and 3 position
centrefire: 300 meter prone and 3 position

In prone position u lie prone on the ground facing ur target with a sling around ur left arm attached to the forend of ur rifle and the rifle rests on ur left hand palm and u shoot. In standing u shoot standing straight without sling. in kneeling u have the sling attached and shoot resting ur elbow on ur front knee facing the target

2 how many shots does one fire?

Both Rimfire & centre fire prone : u fire 60 record shots & "Unlimited" sighters in 1 hour and 15 min. the unlimited is a misnomer as the time taken to fire the sighter is part of the match time only so u see ppl firing anywhere from 8-20 sighter shots.

3 position : Rimfire and centre fire free rifle : 40 shots each from prone , standing and kneeling position in a approx 3 hrs.
In standard rifle u shoot 40 shots in each postion in 2 hours


3 how is the scoring done?

The targets have the scoring rings printed on em and whichever ring ur shot hits is your score out of 10 for that shot.
Since u fire 60 record shots for the comp the score is out of 600.

4 how big is the bulls eye in diff. competitions.
50 M rifle its 10mm the size is as below - do ur math

10 Ring 10.4 mm (±0.1 mm ) 5 Ring 90.4 mm (±0.5 mm )
9 Ring 26.4 mm (±0.2 mm ) 4 Ring 106.4 mm (±0.5 mm )
8 Ring 42.4 mm (±0.2 mm ) 3 Ring 122.4 mm (±0.5 mm )
7 Ring 58.4 mm (±0.5 mm ) 2 Ring 138.4 mm (±0.5 mm )
6 Ring 74.4 mm (±0.5 mm ) 1 Ring 154.4 mm (±0.5 mm )


300 M rifle its 100 mm the size is as below:

10 Ring 100 mm (±0.5 mm ) 5 Ring 600 mm (±3.0 mm )
9 Ring 200 mm (±1.0 mm ) 4 Ring 700 mm (±3.0 mm )
8 Ring 300 mm (±1.0 mm ) 3 Ring 800 mm (±3.0 mm )
7 Ring 400 mm (±3.0 mm ) 2 Ring 900 mm (±3.0 mm )
6 Ring 500 mm (±3.0 mm ) 1 Ring 1000 mm (±3.0 mm )

5 what is an average score that is considered good, good enough to be renowned shot in india/ good enought to be renowned outside/ good enough to win an international medal.

Now with the new rule comming in :
Prone
50 Meter - 560
300 meters - 475

3 position is diff just chk the match book for it
Winning medals is relative - right now wud b premature for u to think on those lines. U cud get one at 580 also and might not get it at 597 too... International - Forget it;)


i have more questions and will ask you once i know the answers to these.

no problems

and please try give me simple/basic answers so that the 'uninformed' can understand.
thanks

I hope the above r clear nough BTW dl the match book from the NRAI website and u will find the MQS and other details of the matches frm it.

Shutzen...write a book!

[mehulkamdar]

Shooter,

I have a few questions for you on the basis of which you could decide how to start shooting - do you plan on being in paper punching alone in ISSF competition or do you want to shoot to hunt as well? You have certain major advantages living in the UK in the sense that the choice in rifles, ammunition and equipment is vastly more than anyone in India could imagine. If it is paper punching then you could either work on the ISSF 50m or 300m matches. If you plan on hunting etc then there are considerably better choices in terms of preparatory rifle sports, equipment etc.

Personally, if you haven't got much rifle shooting, I would suggest starting off with a service rifle match and get some fun and experience shooting the Lee aEnfields, Mausers, Mannlichers etc from 100 to 300 metres. IMO the breathe in and let "x" amount of air out business is fine as long as you maintain consistency in how much air you let out. There is no magic formula of 1/2, 2/3rds or whatever - consistency is the key. From here you could switch to either ISSF matches or to more field oriented matches depending on what you want to do.

Also, if you're going to be hunting, you would need to be able to do offhand shooting either with shooting sticks or just your arms and body at different ranges without the support of a one point ISSF type sling. There are also differences in stance between ISSF style shooting and firing a sporting rifle with higher recoil - I have seen several idiots who have tried to shoot big bore rifles using the ISSF "support the forward elbow on the side" stance and get hurt and also drop valuable rifles and mar them. Again, not having hunted in the UK, I don't have much experience though I have heard that hunting guides there prefer scope sighted rifles, so my suggestion, if you want to participate in recreational or hunting use would be to start with a scope sighted rifle in the 243 to 30-06 class. These are mild in recoil and anyone can shoot them properly.

A good thing would be to take a little coaching - usually a one hour lesson is enough to begin and then you could learn as you go on. The best way is to shoot as much as possible. If you visit Chicago, you're more than welcome to shoot my riles and I could take you to some of the top coaches in this part of the world.

Cheers!

[mehulkamdar]

Shooter,

Just to add something - try and get a renowned shooter designation in any one field and import a gun in that - if you;re going to shoot more trap then become a renowned trap shooter and import a trap gun on that license when you return to India. And, since youl;re resident abroad, just take along a rifle on TR when you go. That way you wouldn't have to waste time on preparations for two completely different kinds of shooting and would still be able to enjoy both at your pleasure.

Cheers!

[shutzen]

Shooter,

You have certain major advantages living in the UK in the sense that the choice in rifles, ammunition and equipment is vastly more than anyone in India could imagine.
Cheers!

sorry to dissapoint u Mehul - I think that the scenario has changed drastically since maybe u last competed. There is no restriction on the Rifle make type u can order as long as it fulfils certain criteria - which almost all BA rifles do and u can import any ammo. On any day at the Nationals the type of rifles u see represent probabbly the best in calss types these include both match and sniper grade rifles modified for match use like: tanner,alpine,kricho,blaser,keppeler,sig,grunig ..... there r also sevral shikari types last time one I remeber had a douglas barreled 06 and also one dude had a remington 700 . There were also a couple of guys having sporterized milsurp weapons springfields to b exact from the bangladesh war. Also M1 Garand converted to single shot . I dont see how anyone in britain would have a advantage over us in terms of rifles- remember u only need to know one rifle well enough to shoot it xtremly well and that the one which matters in the comp. the "armoury" stays home doing nothing

[penpusher]

Advantages of being in UK as opposed to being in India?Hmmm....No restriction on the number of rifles you can buy.No restriction on the ammount of ammo that you can buy.Easy availability of all international brands of rifles and ammunition that you can shoot in them to find out what suits that particular rifle best.All this at rates you would kill for in India.Easy to get guidance and training.Good gunsmiths coupled with availability of barrels ,triggers etc to keep your firearm in good nick.Best of all,no need to get a renowned shot certificate/jugaad and chummying up to slime balls passing off as shooting officiandos, to get all this.

Perhaps Grumpy can elaborate on the rifle shooting sport in UK.

penpusher

[kanwar76]

Shooter,

You have certain major advantages living in the UK in the sense that the choice in rifles, ammunition and equipment is vastly more than anyone in India could imagine.
Cheers!

sorry to dissapoint u Mehul - I think that the scenario has changed drastically since maybe u last competed. There is no restriction on the Rifle make type u can order as long as it fulfils certain criteria - which almost all BA rifles do and u can import any ammo. On any day at the Nationals the type of rifles u see represent probabbly the best in calss types these include both match and sniper grade rifles modified for match use like: tanner,alpine,kricho,blaser,keppeler,sig,grunig ..... there r also sevral shikari types last time one I remeber had a douglas barreled 06 and also one dude had a remington 700 . There were also a couple of guys having sporterized milsurp weapons springfields to b exact from the bangladesh war. Also M1 Garand converted to single shot . I dont see how anyone in britain would have a advantage over us in terms of rifles- remember u only need to know one rifle well enough to shoot it xtremly well and that the one which matters in the comp. the "armoury" stays home doing nothing

You joking aren’t you

Don't know much about rifle shooting but one freaking shotgun shell cost Rs35-50 and one imported .22LR cost anywhere from Rs20 to 35 in INDIA and good under over cost an arm and leg. I think when Mehul posted that he was thinking of choice at hand for a novice not a renowned shot and yeah there are even Purdeys and h & H are with many people in INDIA but how many common folks can even afford holding them in Hand...

Don’t know much about UK but here in US one arms dealer probably carry more guns than all the dealers in a big state combined in INDIA.

-Inder

[shutzen]

mehulkamdar";p="21871"]Shutzen,

Let's see you buy, under the great Indian dispensation, the following:

Okay I need u to get ur perspective correct Mehul this is an ISSF forum and under ISSF guidlines - NOT GOVT. OF INDIA guidlines max caliber that can b used is 8 mm so I can get anything in BA as per ISSF guidlines I FEEL LIKE

1. A 50 BMG LAR, PGW or AAO Model 2000

read above its over 8 mil and I have no use for it.

4. A Remington CTi 12 bore semi auto

I am a rifleman and right now I dont have the itch for a shotgun - when I do get it I will swap one of my rifle for a berreta maybe...

5. A Smith and Wesson Scandium 1911A1 in 45 ACP

I not considered PB in Maharashtra state - any civilian can get it. Most other states which have some formulated policy allow a renowned shot to possed 2 PB weapons so.....


Considering that you call yourself a "renowned shot" twice over, it should be very easy under the liberal Indian policy of importing firearms.

Considering that GOI allows what the ISSF specifies its not a problem for the serious shooter to get what he wants.

And a hint - I could buy all of these in an afternoon if I wanted to. I have shot all of these and then some more. *edited*
Just plinking or casual shooting is not the forte of this forum anyone can do that -hell most of our cops and armymen are dehatis and they do it - here we talk about sports shooting. I also have enough relatives in the army and have shot most of the Infantry weapons and also fired -ARTY- so ....pl take ur superior attitude to the appropriate forum please

[shutzen]

penpusher";p="21863"]Advantages of being in UK as opposed to being in India?Hmmm....No restriction on the number of rifles you can buy.


HI! penpusher last I chk their forums there are some pretty strict conditions and owning rifles in Britian aint like what u think -most of the ppl on the forums were ranting and raving abt it -unless they recently changed the rules.

No restriction on the ammount of ammo that you can buy.Easy availability of all international brands of rifles and ammunition that you can shoot in them to find out what suits that particular rifle best.

When buddy the brits invented that little blue book ... I think u need to do a re-check. For the enduser read shooter in INDIA the rates r pretty much the same plus airfreight costs. Please keep in mind we r talking in an ISSF shooting forum here not in a wildcatting, load development or experimental forum here. In most fiels of shooting enough research has been done and the barrel cla. twist rates have been clearly identified with the type of cartridges which soot them best. Shooters only reload in the countries where it is permitted in other countries you depend on the match ammo mfg. by factories and they seem to b doing a good job of it. you dont experiment and try to pointlessly reinvent the wheel - us simply buy a proven combination and work on ur game.


All this at rates you would kill for in India.
All this is relative. the ammo and rifles come in duty free at the same rates they sell it abroad only the transportation cost gets factored in.

Easy to get guidance and training.

Thats available there - In India only few select shooter get proper coaching but one can manage if u order the proper books over the net and gotot the ISSF forums - I am self tought and can do pretty ok.

Good gunsmiths coupled with availability of barrels ,triggers etc to keep your firearm in good nick.

Well if u need a gunsmith its bad news anyway most of the competition grade rifles are overengineered to a large extend - thats why they r costly. however most shooters import a spare trigger , firing pin with their rifle. U can also get in a spare barrel or a barrel in interchangable cal. other that that the sights just screw on the handstop ,bipod sling etc r all free import items u can get em in the mail.


Best of all,no need to get a renowned shot certificate/jugaad and chummying up to slime b@ll$ passing off as shooting officiandos, to get all this.

well pal in INDIA u chummy up to slimeballs to get virtually ANY work done - so what diff does it make to do it one more time for something which u like ?


Perhaps Grumpy can elaborate on the rifle shooting sport in UK.

Yeah - please give us a proper and clear picute please...

[shutzen]

You joking aren’t you

no mate i am just painting the pic in its reality...

Don't know much about rifle shooting but one freaking shotgun shell cost Rs35-50

Well I know ppl who keep imorting em regularly at less than 15-18 bucks each RWS and other european makes....

and one imported .22LR cost anywhere from Rs20 to 35

If buying from NRAI:
1. Lapua practice ammo : Rs. 3.45/-
2. Lapua MIDAS match ammo Rs. 12/-
3. lapua std. practice ammo Rs. 4.50/-

4. Eley club xtra Rs. 5,50/-
5. Eley Ultimate Match Rs. 14/-
can chk and post rates for the shotgun carts if u want.

recently I was quoted a price of EURO 55 for 1000 rounds of Lapua practice ammo + tranportation by a dealer in Germany. Will be getting some after the December Nats.

in INDIA and good under over cost an arm and leg.

U can thank Indira Gandhi and Rajiv Gandhi for that - shooting match weapons and ammo is anyways always more expensive than hunting guns and ammo - and also military surplus guns and ammo

I think when Mehul posted that he was thinking of choice at hand for a novice not a renowned shot and

What Mehul forgets is that this is the ISSF forum and he posts off topic . Any member of the NRAI who competes can buy the match grade ammo u dont have to be a renowned shot for that.

yeah there are even Purdeys and h & H are with many people in INDIA but how many common folks can even afford holding them in Hand...

All relative buddy... so many ppl richer that me here , more powerful than me , but thats the way of like everywhere in the world gotta live with it and try and make it work for u

Don’t know much about UK but here in US one arms dealer probably carry more guns than all the dealers in a big state combined in INDIA.

sure does everyone knows that - But we dont use the junk made in INDIA stuff or ammo in the comps so it dosent matter even in the USA there are a "FEW" speciality stores that sell competition grade stuff and lot of competition grade stuff there is also on order to order basis so...

[shutzen]

*HEAVILY EDITED*

Again need I remind all that *edited* this is an ISSF competition shooting forum where I think a serious shooter will also not have more than 4 weapons of a particular event with him most have only 2 and they r usually the same make and model standbys- this is not a gun collectors forum pl post in the respective forum


I am posting accurate info which I myself struggled to find out in my time - I am helping other by sharing my experience with them so lets respect the forums sanctity and only post relevant things here please

[Risala]

Shutzen,

These rates are no where near what NRAI quotes on its web site and that for IOF ammo.

http://www.nrai.in/iof.html

And where does it say that renowned shots can keep 2 PB fire arms,the only exemption they get from the Arms Act is that they can keep additional arms on the same Lic.

Sanjay

[shutzen]

Shutzen,

These rates are no where near what NRAI quotes on its web site and that for IOF ammo.

http://www.nrai.in/iof.html

whos talking abt the junk IOF copper tube ammo meant only for practice to armoured regiments? I am talking about the imported target shooting ammo which is only given to shooters who compete in the competitions - rates for those r not published on the website.

And where does it say that renowned shots can keep 2 PB fire arms,the only exemption they get from the Arms Act is that they can keep additional arms on the same Lic.

A ren shot in Rifle can keep a .303 and a 7.62 both of which are PB and 15000 rounds each for them besides when I have some time I will scan and post a copy of the Maharashtra Govt. notification which clearly states that a ren. shot can keep 2 PB weapons and 2000 rds each of ammo for the same.