Shotgun buying advice for a newbie (in the UK)

[Grumpy]

"mundaqire is to be blamed for it.
forced me to take him shooting (at gun point)."

Abhijeet has a UK Shotgun Certificate ?

What that person was trying to suggest was that Browning 525s ( and the older 325s and 425s ) and Citoris which are built in Japan by Miroku are not as good as the Belgian made B25 models. They are not, as it happens, particularly unreliable........they aren`t as good as a B25 though. If you were set on a B25 there are less expensive models available - The A1 and B1. A1s don`t have fancy engraving - most hardly have any engraving at all - but are `proper` Brownings all the same.

The new Webleys are not exactly very impressive.......I can`t remember whether they are Turkish or Spanish. Probably the former as AGS seem determined to shift ALL Webley production to Turkey.

How much are you being charged to use a club gun ? That has nothing to do with not having a Shotgun Certificate by the way.......just a hire charge I presume. Are you being supervised ?

[Grumpy]

The reason that I suggested that you use various club guns rather than buy a cheapy is to do with you having to re-learn how to shoot with the gun that you eventually purchase. There`s the distinct risk that you will get into get into bad habits using a gun that doesn`t suit or fit you.

[shooter]

most clubs say that since i dont have a certificate/ own gun, they cant allow me to be by myself and have to be supervised.
some times these 'supervisors/coaches/instruscors are good but mostly all they do is hold ur gun between stands, score, press button when you say pull and when you miss say ' below the first one behind the second one.'
and therefore it has led me to consolidate my mistakes by doing the wrong thing over and over again.
it is because of this supervisor that they charge me money in the form of his 'hourly charges'.

what are your views about a skb?

[Grumpy]

Yup, that`s just what you need, some idiot standing behind your right elbow saying `just behind` or `just in front` when what you need to be able to do is to repeat the shot until you get it right.
Supervision is a legal requirement. When your licence arrives you will find that you suddenly and miraculously become a safe and competent shot.........
Why not check with Abhijeet about his return to the UK in September ( hopefully ) when we can make up a party of four - with Vikram - and have a few hours at Ivythorne. There`s a full sporting layout and you can repeat shots as often as you like -clays are 20p each - £20 per 100. The three of you can engage the services of a really good coach and split the cost between you. I`ll bring some rifles...... - and a pile of ammo - for you to try out on the rifle range.
SKB ? Japanese. I don`t know if they have ever been formally distributed in the UK because you see very few of them. Supposed to be OK - fair value for money but the couple that I`ve seen have been pretty nonde.script. The company is still in existence and sells guns in the US. One of the major problems is that if anything goes wrong and needs replacing you will have to deal with the factory in Japan via a UK gunsmith. Har di flippin` har.

[Grumpy]

I`ve just noticed this comment in an earlier post :

"do u know what is a bigger shame?
being in uk, wanting an english gun but not being able to afford one".

You can buy a British gun for under a thousand pounds - no problem.

[shooter]

well i meant the 'fine british guns'.
fine being defined as in the 'fine guns' in the forum. namely purdey, h&h, etc etc.
i have a army and navy SXS back home.
beautiful gun. (birmingham.).
i got an appt at litts for this sat. 1330.
anything i need to keep in mind to make the most of my trip/visit?

[Grumpy]

Check out as many guns as possible, don`t be intimidated into buying and have a good look at any used guns.

[Grumpy]

`Fine` guns - in the case of British shotguns - would be sidelock ejectors by Boss, Purdey and H&H and also James Woodward, Henry Atkin, Stephen Grant, Joseph Lang, William Powell, John Dickson, James MacNaughton ( round actions also from those two Scottish makers ) E.J.Churchill, W.W.Greener and one or two others. If rifles are included then Rigby is the obvious name to add.

[shooter]

exactly.
may i dare add the 'new' purdey-woodward?
would that be politically and technically correct?
would those 'others' include cogswell and harrison?

"have a good look at any used guns."

any tips/ things to keep in mind?

[Grumpy]

"may i dare add the 'new' purdey-woodward?"

You don`t have to dare because it`s definitely a fine gun........and both Purdey and Woodward appear in that list anyway.

Cogswell & Harrison are somewhat further down the running order - as can be seen from the lower prices their used guns make.

"any tips/ things to keep in mind?"

Try to avoid being impressed with shiny bling, sideplates, machine engraving - those sort of things. Gold plated triggers are a typical example and look really bad when they wear - which they do extremely quickly. Look for tight jointing and a positive feel when opening and closing a gun. Stiff doesn`t necessarily mean new........and stiff and creaky is BAD news. Make sure there are no splits or bad bruises in the wood, that the rib and bead ( beads ) are properly attached and that the trigger fells smooth and positive when pulled. Ask for a pair of pair of snap caps so you can pull the trigger and also check the ejector operation. Most O/Us have the second barrel cocked by inertia - a hefty whack on the butt will set the trigger.

[shooter]

well said grumpy.
i hate bling. i have seen custom made guns whose actions are virtually golden in colour. i dont particularly like gold engraving even if it is new.
i would rather prefer the chrome engraving. as far as im aware, gold is not a standard feature in the engravings for purdey, h&h, rigby double rifle, boss, churchill etc.

should the grain run throughout the wood? (am quoting a conversation where a man is describing how his customers stock cracked)

" He then told me why he wasn't happy with it - he couldn't shoot as well with it as his old gun (stock too short), and the stock had cracked through the grip. I pointed out that although the stock was made of lovely wood, it had no grain running through the grip and was therefore weak at that point and that was why it had cracked."

does the width of the rib matter in a sporter?
are all the beads the same or is one better than the other?

thanks

[shooter]

i also hope litts (im to see a man called adrian; the other elder gentleman wont be in on sat though he said he would be happy to open the store early for me and be there if i wished to come before the stores opening time.)
seemed to be quite helpful.
they have also booked an instructor- tizi at the ground who can help me decide the fit while i shoot.

[shooter]

rbss just called and confirmed my session.
they said they would treat my gunfit as a lesson and it would cost me £85+clays+cartridges.

i think ill tell u the whole story so that theres no confusion.

i called litts to tell them i would need to come over and look at a lot of guns to see which one suits me best. they said they would be happy to be of assistance but gave me another number to call (the rbss number). i called them up and they booked an appt.
is that ok or should i just go and 'see' some guns?
will it be worth the money.
ive heard good stuff bout rbss so have confirmed it. can cancel as well if it is not worth the money.
what do you suggest?
budget wise, £85+ incidentals is not a problem but do u think it is needed at 'this' stage. i mean a beginner plus at the end of it, i might end up not buying anything from them.
do you think it will be money down the drain or would i learn something from it?
or should i rather invest that much money in a lesson to learn to shoot/ save it for my gun budget?
thanks

[Grumpy]

I wouldn`t have bothered to book a lesson until you have definitely bought a gun but that said, if you do buy one it will stand you in good stead - one of the biggest problems in coaching is getting rid of the bad habits a gun has already developed.
It`s your decision.
Sporters have ribs around 8-10mm.

"as far as im aware, gold is not a standard feature in the engravings for purdey, h&h, rigby double rifle, boss, churchill etc. "

Well no, it isn`t........I didn`t realise that your budget has increased so much that you were contemplating buying a gun from one of those makers..............
( )
- `Rigbys` are made in California nowadays ........ and don`t exactly compare to the `real` Rigbys.

Stocks should have their figure in the butt part with straight grain through the wrist to maintain strength. It isn`t going to be of much concern to you because with your budget any grain is going to be straight anyway. Figure costs money !

"Chrome engraving" eh ? Chrome plating is actually rather rare on guns - and non-existent on British guns. I have a hammer gun with a nickel plated action - probably built as a wildfowler - but even that is very rare. Some `el cheapo` continental guns had chrome plated actions.......but not many. The problem is that a) chrome flakes b) you can`t engrave chrome because it`s very hard and c) you wouldn`t see much engraving if the action was engraved and then plated because the chrome would partially fill the engraving.
Actions are case hardened - in the case of British guns more than 95% were colour case hardened and the `coin` finish you see is where the colour has worn away ( or less likely, where it has been polished. ) Dark actions are blued. In the last few years titanium plating has made an appearence ( Fabarm ) and anodising has been used to finish some actions - but is very rare. Black paint has also been used - usually on semi-autos.
Bores are often chrome plated - both for durability and to enable the use of `steel` shot where the grade of steel used in the tubes isn`t hard enough to used with `steel` ( actually iron ) shot. You can`t use steel shot in a British gun - you have to use tungsten matrix ( polymer ) shot NOT tungsten shot.

[shooter]

thanks grumpy.
I have cancelled my lesson.
as i mentioned i wasnt aware it would be a lesson. they called me up and told me about it. (thats why it was mentioned in a separate, later post.)
what i will do is, go down there, visit the gunshop, have a look, get a feel of the gun. see what they have got.
i am also going to visit another shop in twickenham today- 'gun and tackle'.

will tell you what they have got.

thanks for enlightening me about the finish about the actions.
i never realised there was so much variation.
i thought there was case hardened finish and the 'chrome'm finish ( i didnt mean the chromium metal but the colour.)
im sure ill book lessons after i buy my gun.
i think a good foundation is essential for anything.
also i wish i had a budget allowing me to have a purdey.
maybe some day.............
i hope steel can be used in a beretta or the other italian/ jap/belgian guns.
what about the wood?
is walnut a standard wood in all good guns?