Shotgun buying advice for a newbie (in the UK)

[shooter]

grumpy ure right again as usual.
few of the gundealers ( including litts ) told me about a few names i had never heard before (not that i claim to be very knowledgable).
there is one common reply from all gun makers:
my budget is a very healthy one. and although it falls just short of browning/ miroku/beretta, it is still enough to buy a good gun. and that i should wait for the right gun.
also can you tell me if a "gun of a lesser make" loses 20% of its value in the first sale. (in a good condition.)
or more.
for instance a bettinsoli 30" m/c sporter diamond MK2 luxus- new 750, second hand 560 is that a fair depreciation or is it expensive?

[Grumpy]

Something that you need to remember is that if that Bettinsoli is being offered by a dealer the price is secondhand retail........and it will have been bought in/part exchanged at an even lower price. There were a couple of Bettinsoli Diamond lines being offered on Guntrader the other day at £350. Assuming that they cost £595 new then the depreciation is in the order of 40%. Unfortunately with a little known brand like Bettinsoli the depreciation will be hefty. If you buy secondhand the majority of the depreciation will have been paid by someone else and even if you lose 40% when you come to trade it in you will only be losing £140 ( on £350 )rather than £245. As it happens. the loss is likely to be quite a bit less than that because initial depreciation is far greater than subsequent.
As a matter of interest, did Litts mention the B.Rizzinis to you ?

[shooter]

they didnt mention rizzini in particular. they invited me to visit their shop and told me they would be happy to show me the guns they had.
all they mentioned was that all the guns they stocked were good reliable guns and they didnt stock all the so called polular guns.
also to be fair to them, i couldnt take their call as i was with a pt.
called them back but that was from the hosp so could only talk for about 15- 20 min.
also, i have been following guntrader for a while now- has it ever happened to anyone that you get so carried away that you see it for hours or you feel so sad that you cant afford to buy ALL of them.

[Grumpy]

"hosp" ? "pt" ? .......... That has to be `hospital` ..... and, therefore, `patient`. Good grief. yet another shooting doctor ! All you need now is a private ambulance and a hearse and you can offer the full service - from shooting to burying.
What`s your speciality ?

[shooter]

haha
sorry for using abbr. (oops) i mean abbreviations.
mountains of paperwork does that to you.
well im a psychiatrist hoping to super specialise in drug and alcohol rehab. but as of now working in general psych. (oops i did it again.)

grumpy can you also recommend a good place to learn to shoot?
at the moment i shoot at ************* shooting ground.
it is comparatively cheap(for a person without a certificate)-£28 per 50 clays incl cartridges and gun rental- that is the main reason i go there. but i dont learn much. i know if i continue with the wrong habits, stance etc, they will be more difficult to get rid of.
I try to read books and impliment but so many books, so many techniques( move mount shoot, pull through, churchill- you know what im talking about.)
no one actually tested my eye dominance and after 3 weeks i was told i was left eye dominant. when i do the pointin test and circle test my self, i find myself right eye dominant or central vision at the best but not left eye.

west london shooting school wants to charge me £98 a lesson(1 hr)- you do the math.
i have registered with bisley club for lessons but thought would wait for my gun.

I am very passionate about the sport and want a chance to learn it properly.
also pasting you a reply i got via email from another shooting instructor (purposely not including name and club.)

Please understand im not doubting you, that is exactly why im asking fro your opinion.

" Don't rush into Lauronas and Bettinsolis, good value for money but not top quality. If you are clay shooting and using the gun a lot you want a reliable gun that will not go wrong. Incidentally, that also rules out all Brownings costing less than £2500. Berettas (£350-500 secondhand) sometimes fail after 1 million shots, the ejectors can snap-off, but they only cost a few quid to replace, I've never known of any other breakages with them."

thanks grumpy

[shooter]

dear grumpy,
one gundealer up north in lincolnshire
just offered me brand new bettinsoli diamond m/c sporter 30" Mk2 luxus sideplate (new priced at 750) for 550.
i know about the depreciation. but im getting £200 off for a £750 gun.

This is the same model selling for 595 s/h.,
and 565 s/h in other shops.

Some others are selling it for 650 new.

even if i sell the new one for a depreciation of 40% (of rrp 750) it sells for 450, a loss of £100 from 550.
in the meantime, avalon guns, ( www.avalon-guns.com) - who wont budge from the price £750- have invited me to their shop and try it out at their shooting grounds a mile away where they have gun fit expert to advise me. worth a try i think.

Oh i also forgot to mention that litts had asked for my contact no. and said they would be on a lookout for a suitable gun for me.
Everyine i call up/ write to asks me my height. would it not be more practical to ask for the length of my forearm?

[Grumpy]

I reckon that it would be a bit of a gamble to assume that you would only lose a hundred pounds off of that sideplated Bettinsoli......and would also suggest that there is a very good reason for that dealer offering the gun at that price - basically he`s trying to get rid of it. If you can afford around £600-£750 you are in secondhand Beretta and Miroku territory. As I keep saying, you`ll get a much better gun for the money if you buy secondhand. I really do advise against the `bling` of buying gun from a `no-name` maker rather than getting a much better used gun.
I fundamentally agree with what the other coach told you - as I have already said, DON`T rush into buying a gun and you`ll get a better gun if you buy secondhand which will also lose much less money when you come to sell or trade it - especially if by a `name` maker.
I don`t think that you`re `doubting me`...... I don`t think you`ve read properly what I`ve had to say though.
Lincolnshire isn`t `up North` by the way - it`s North of London but actually in the East Midlands.
You don`t seem to have noticed but Litts Royal Berkshire premises are based at the Royal Berkshire Shooting School.............................................
I know where Avalon Guns is but do you ? Avalon guns are in Street, Somerset which is less than 6 miles from me.........and a heck of a long way from you !
`Their` shooting ground isn`t actually theirs - it is Ivythorne Sporting which belongs to a guy named Steve Beatty who used to work for Avalon Guns. Providing all goes well I will be taking Abhijeet and Vikram there in September. Steve IS a really good coach.
Whereabouts in London are you based ? It`s all very well recommending a coach but it rather depends on where you are.
Coaching IS very expensive which is why it is often recommended that you engage a coach as one of a party of four.
The best book on technique is Michael Yardleys `Positive Shooting`. He also still coaches and can advise on gun fitting.

[shooter]

thanks grumpy.
actually i have been reading each and every word of what every word of what you have written.
and i do appreciate the concept of losing more money on the new gun and not to go for 'brands'.
thats the reason why i tell you whats going on and how im progressing with my buying.

as i said earlier, i am putting all this on the forum because i realise the other readers might have same dillemas/ queries as mine. and i want to tell you the thought process a novice with no knowledge goes through.
i have also made an effort to read your many other posts. (its not possible to read ALL your 1183 posts.)

I also recall your similar advice to another person (in india) who was looking to buy his first gun and you told him not to go for the 'names' or 'brands' and the whole thread.

i also know avalon is close to you. in fact if i recall correctly you have mentioned this somewhere and an american friend of yours saying something like not being able to walk 2 steps without tripping into history.

Im sure now you realise that i read what you write carefully and thats why i bombard you with more enquiries because i respect ur opinion and like to read what u write.

i live in ealing in london and i admit us londoners have a habit of describing places in relation to M25.
(guilty as charged).

I appreciate lessons can be expensive therefore it is important that i get it from the right beople.
(did you read what happened to me reg eye dominance at *********** shooting grounds?)

Michael yardleys positive shooting was the first non medical book i bought in this country. followed by "move mount shoot" by john bidwell" 3 mths later and h&H ken davison's book recently.

yardley helped me but as i dont have a gun at home, cant practice dry mounting ( tried it with a stick i brought for this purpose.)

thanks again

[penpusher]

Shooter,

How about a SXS.If I were you I would go with Grumpy to one of those auctions he and Vikram went to.

penpusher

[Grumpy]

Blimey.....if you`ve been wading through a pile of my outpourings you must be thoroughly sick of the thoughts of `Chairman` Grumpy !
Yes, I did see your comments re the `coach` who mis-identified your dominant eye........I forgot to respond on the matter and can only say that whoever he is he`s no coach. I`d be grateful if you could PM me to let me know who he is and where he`s based.
I`ve just had a look at Avalon guns secondhand list and noted four Berettas at £650 - £750 - including a 682 @ £750. They also have a nice Winchester 101 at £495. Steve Beatty used - quite possibly still uses - an old Winchester 6500.
You started talking about guns in the £395 region and are now considering guns around £750 - has your budget risen ?
The advantage of buying from a dealer associated with a gunshop is - as you have surmised - that you can actually try the guns you are interested in.
I assume that your Shotgun Certificate hasn`t come through yet ? It`ll be easier when it has as far as checking guns out is concerned although you can buy a gun before your certificate arrives........you just can`t take it home.
You need to go to a dealers who has a large stock of guns to handle as many as possible. Sound advice as regards what suits you best is worth a lot more than £100 discount. Ask Litts whether they are able to offer advice at the shooting school. If you want to come down to Avalon/Ivythorne I`ll be quite happy to meet you.

[Grumpy]

Auctions aren`t so good for `name` O/Us because a) they`re easy enough to dispose of anyway and b) because guns like Beretta 686s make very good money at auction......often more than a similar gun might sell for at a dealers believe it or not. They are very good for less well known brands however.
Pretty academic anyway as the next round of auctions aren`t until September.
If Devs shooting is going to be primarily clay shooting the odds are that he will be best served by an O/U.......it`s rare that someone gets on better with a SxS for clays. A SxS game gun would be something to acquire in the future.

[penpusher]

Just dreamimg of SxS's.A H&H Dominion with gold cocking indicators,nice engraving with box , all accessories and papers from H&H going for 4,50,000/-ie. about 6500 pounds(condition about 85-90%) and I don't have the money for it

penpusher

[penpusher]

Then again,it's not that bad a thing.Not having the money,I mean.Seems to be a bit over priced,I think.

penpusher

[mundaire]

penpusher,

I had the chance to go out and take a look at a few guns with Dev Vrat (Shooter) and it was a major reality check for me to see second hand O/U shotguns priced at lower prices as compared to some of the second hand air-rifles on offer!!

There were some really good condition & pretty (not the pricey brands though) shotguns pegged at under 400 GBP.... We have such a raw deal back home in India - it's not even funny!!

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[Grumpy]

Yeah, overpriced......especially for a gun that wasn`t actually made by H&H - all the Dominion models were built for H&H by Scott and Webley and Scott. I think you mean that the cocking indicators are gold filled or gold line rather than gold.
I have to admit that the Dominion has never appealed to me........it`s not a `proper` H&H and its styling was anachronistic. A sort of cheap, old fashioned H&H.