Shotgun buying advice for a newbie (in the UK)

[shooter]

thanks a lot guys for ur prompt responses.
A dealer very close to my place has a beautiful sporting laurona, good engraving mint condition m/c 28" £345 ono.

Havent tried it in the range but it has a nice "feel" to it and fits me well.

my other option is a bettinsoli diamond mk2 sporter 30" or a mk3 which sells for £650 brand new.

Of course a lanber is an excellent piece of work especially for the price.

I know these guns are nothing exceptional but i am just a beginner. and intend to use my first purchase a lot both in the grounds and the fields.

I do intend(dream of
) to "upgrade" later to browning, beretta, miroku, perazzi, H&H and purdey.

But at the moment i intend to stick to the old adge "a gun is only as good as the person who shoots it."

and Vikram would you by any chance be referring to warwick shooting grounds at rugby?

i had lesson booked there with david reith once but had to cancel at the last minute.

I definitely would love to come there to shoot with you.

Friends do consider before inviting me, i dont turn down invitations to shoot.

[mehulkamdar]

Shooter,

All of your choices are good ones AFAIK. You won't go wrong with any.

BTW, John Smith, the owner of http://www.surreysportingclub.co.uk/ is a member here and a supporter of Indians For Guns. You could contact him and have a word with him if you like about shooting. He has also arranged coaching for people who have contacted him by some of the UK's top coaches. He would also be able to suggest something or offer you some guns to try and make your mind up if you schedule a shooting session there.

Since you're in London, perhaps, if you and Abhijeet have time, you should try shooting there. Not only would you have fun, you would meet one of the most knowledgeable shooters and firearms historians in the world - his website is a repository of some of the most detailed information about gunmakers past and present. Don't forget to say Hi from me if you speak or meet.

Best wishes and do let us know what you decide on. Also, do post pictures of whatever you buy. One of the duties of every member here is to make the others drool over his/her purchases.

[Vikram]

DV,

It's Barby sporting grounds.

www.barbysporting.com

Wednesday and Saturday are the open days.Come over anytime.Will PM my number and email.

A very neat looking Winchester 101 U/O was sold for 150GBP yesterday.

Good shooting-
Vikram

[Risala]

DV,



A very neat looking Winchester 101 U/O was sold for 150GBP yesterday.

Good shooting-
Vikram

Vik,

A good deal going for GBP 150.

A dealer in Delhi is selling the same gun Win 101 O/U in mint condition asking for Rs 325000/-
Beat that.

Cheers

Sanjay

[Grumpy]

Hi Dev. Yes, met Abhijeet yesterday - a very cool guy ......... who looked nothing like his photographs !
A `cracking` Laurona Pigeon gun ? That must be the wabbitbosher. Um, well......Micks requirements are somewhat particular - even peculiar.
I have to admit to being biased against budget Spanish guns except for the Zabalas. Spanish engraving is strange and, although getting better, still doesn`t compare to English or Italian engraving. You`ld have to view a Spanish gun side by side with an English gun to see the differences but even the best Spanish engraving ( which certainly isn`t what you`ll find on a Laurona ) is inferior.
The Bettinsoli Diamond Line are possibly the best budget guns currently available nowadays - certainly amongst the best anyway. Much better than in the days of mail order sales when they - and the E.Rizzinis - were cheap catalogue fodder. I had a quick look at the guntrader.co.uk website before writing this and the Bettinsolis are available new discounted to around £575 with used examples from £350 upwards. At that price they are real bargains.......and somebody else has had to absorb the deflation from new.
Before you buy any gun you need to decide what you want it for. Whether a game gun or a dedicated Trap/Skeet/Sporter. A game gun makes a fair clay gun and a more than reasonable Sporter but a Trap or Skeet gun makes a rotten game gun. As an all-rounder a game gun is best followed by a Sporter. If you aren`t going to shoot game at all, only clays, get a Sporter. Only buy a dedicated Trap or Skeet gun if you are going to shoot Trap or Skeet exclusively.
I hope this helps Dev but if there`s anything else I can assist you with please ask - I`ll respond to your PM including my email details.

[shooter]

thanks a lot:

1 vikram for the invitation. man till 2 months back i was coming to coventry CV2 2nn almost fortnightly, just missed you. but hope to catch up with you soon.

2 Grumpy,
thanks a lot. well i guess i should have been more clear about my specs.
at the moment im looking for a sporter.
when i become a reasonable shot (consistant C encroaching onto B), I intend to take up game more seriously. considering how much it costs, cant afford to miss a lot . Do u think a m/c bettinsoli plus a dedicated trap gun can be used for sporting + skeet+ field+ trap. (at least for a beginner.)
Its just that i dont want to just spend a lot for my first gun. I plan to upgrade gradually and reward myself as i improve.
I intend to focus primarily on sporting but to try my hand at skeet and trap rarely.-( I have membership forms of ncsc and bisley at my table as we speak) Mundaire and i plan to go to essex tomorrow to see some bettinsolis tomorrow.
can u recommend some dealers in greater london area? (not in mayfair/W1/WC1 please )
I agree the engraving is not great(on laurona). we all know it is not even needed to learn or shoot well but its just that i really like my action to have some engraving (my bias), Bettinsoli seems to be a safe bet, the sporting shooter also recommended it in top 5 buys calling it "best value for money"
lastly, i purposely requested you to reply on the forum so that other members could also benefit from your wisdom and knowledge.
You have convinced me- bettinsoli it is.
Cheers.

[Grumpy]

I`m rather chuffed to discover that I`m not the only one to reckon the Bettinsoli Diamond Line - they are exceptional value for money.
As a starting point I would just get the multichoke sporter - which will be more than adequate for Trap and Skeet as well. I`m somewhat `old-school` in my approach to Trap and Skeet and used to recommend 32" barrels for dedicated Trap guns and 26-28" barrels for Skeet because I found that pupils would improve their shooting within those disciplines most quickly with those combinations. I also found that a palm swell was a positive benefit for Trap, of little consequence for Skeet and a liability for Sporting. If you have a choice I`d suggest 30" barrels for the Sporter. Coaching used to throw up all sorts of idiosyncratic problems with pupils but as generalisations I still stick to the above.
I have to admit to proving a major exception myself as regards Trap shooting because the gun that I shot DTL Trap best with was a Churchill Hercules - a Side by Side with short - 25" - barrels and Churchill rib. I consistently hit maximums with that gun - a much higher percentage than with any other gun. That came up in conversation with Abhijeet and Vukram yesterday and I think that they were both pretty suprised when I told them however it just goes to prove that everyone is different and that when it comes to guns and shooting there are exceptions to any rule.......or suggestion.
When it comes to game shooting at a later stage I absolutely recommend that you invest in an English gun - a Side by Side. Nothing else handles as well, as fast or is as well suited to the extremes of shooting required. You could look for a nice boxlock with good game scene engraving if engraving turns you on...........and probably at a lot less expense than you might imagine.
The one dealer that I can recommend that isn`t to far from London is Litts at Royal Berkshire. I haven`t visited that branch myself but often used to visit their main premises at Newport, South Wales. Litts sell guns from a couple of hundred pounds to £60,000 plus but give good service whatever you buy - and I`m pretty certain that they stock Bettinsolis.

Litts at The Royal Berkshire Shooting Ground
Upper Basildon
Berkshire
01491 672914

That`s near Pangbourne. Ring them first to see what they have in stock.

[shooter]

thanks grumpy thanks a ton.
grumpy im convinced a bettinsoli 30" m/c sporter is the gun for me.

i visited the essex gun shop this weekend.
second hand ones started from 350 (28") boxlock good condition to 599 boxlock sideplate 30", very good condition.
the new ones started from 565 (30" boxlock) to 650 Boxlock sideplate 30".

Is it true that the stiffer the action (when you open),
and more away the lever is from the midline is, the newer the gun or is it possible to tighten the action in an old gun.
i went to my shooting ground and the owner told me the bettinsolis "came apart soon" and "kick like a mule".

Also, the person in essex gun shop (not neville) told me no one shoots 28" barrels in sporting these days and i should only buy a 30" gun.

can you please comment.

[Grumpy]

Dev, the prices of secondhand guns in any particular gunshop only reflects the stock and pricing of that shop. Go into a Perazzi dealership ( for example ) and there will be secondhand guns at over £5k.
Generally speaking a new gun will be tight and the opening lever straight. Guns soon loosen up with use. Good quality guns will be finished so that minimal effort is required to open them and will stay that way for hundreds of thousands of shots. Generally as a gun wears the opening lever will compensate and will settle further and further to the right however there are plenty of new guns that have an opening lever offset to the right ...... presumably they move even further to the right with wear. Certain guns - eg Krieghoffs - use a sliding latch locking system which automatically compensates for wear in the latch. When there is no more compensation you replace it with an over-size version......should you live that long ! On a somewhat different subject guns like Berettas which have stub hinge pins can simply have them replaced with oversize pins when the gun needs rejointing.
I don`t know how much you can afford to spend on a gun but if c.£600 I would always recommend that you buy a good secondhand gun rather than a new gun for the same money. Look around and you can find used Beretta 682s for around £700..........and plenty of 686s or Miroku Mk 38s. When buying a used gun you get a better gun for the same money and you lose much less money when disposing of it because someone else has already paid the depreciation.
Whoever told you that the Bettinsolis `soon come apart` and `kick like a mule` is talking out of the back of his trousers - they haven`t been around long enough for any problem of that nature to become apparent and I found no problems with excessive recoil. You can bet that the dealer concerned didn`t stock Bettinsolis and ought to be avoided like all bullshitters. Bettinsoli are distributed by RUAG Ammotec UK - that name might not mean too much to you but is the comparitively new name for the parent company of RWS, Norma, Rottweill and Dynamit Nobel. A huge and very well regarded company in the firearms/propellents/explosives field. Why would they risk their good name by distributing an inferior product ?
As regards the use of 30" barrels for Sporting Clays: Well, yes, I agree.......and have already recommended their use in my previous post above...............

[shooter]

grumpy, thanks a lot again.
i am soo glad i asked you these questions.
i hope you dont mind me bothering you with these simple questions.
I know most dealers would answer my questions in a way that helps their sales. i am thankful for having you to answer my queries.
this gentlemen told me that the fact that the lever was shifted to the right and the action tight meant that it was new. and as it got more and more used, it would shift TOWARDS the midline. which i now realise was not true.
And the fellow who told me about the mule kick was intrested in selling me the club miroku for £250.( which is being repaired for a "broken spring"). (when i showed him the magzine article, he told me the magzine was crap.)
I would also like to ask you what basic fit to look for:
length from my elbow to first index digit equalling stock length or my nose 2 inches behind the front of the comb? or both of them or some others.
i know nothing will fit like a glove and it is too sone to talk about fit et. but is there some basic rule to follow or something to be avoided?
i would also like to point out that i have very long hands- even long for a six footer. so most stocks are short for me. i can always out a butt pad. but any comments and tips?
i had also been looking at the litts ad in sporting shooter. they have a collection of premium guns and if i remember correctly, they also stock bettinsolis.
i shall surely visit/ call them.
i thank you once again for all the help grumpy.

[Grumpy]

It is a fact that some guns have the top lever off to the right when new which then centres quite rapidly with use...... a matter of a lack of finishing I suspect. It`s also something that I hadn`t seen until the last couple of years or so. So yes, the dealer was telling a certain amount of truth......but only as it applies to a few guns.
There is no fixed rule of thumb for gun fit - the elbow to the first knuckle is supposed to be the most accurate but everyone varies and such guidelines can only be used as an estimate. Ones build can make a fair amount of difference - the more muscular or ( ahem ) the more portly amongst us often require a shorter stock than might usually be reckoned. Large hands/long fingers makes very little difference because the hand is wrapped around the grip or wrist of the stock.
When I was a junior there was a Skeet coach who, whenever a pupil who had arms like a Gorilla complained that even the gun with the longest stock available was too short, would tell the pupil to hold the fore-end further forward........It works remarkably well but I used to wonder how many people were shooting with guns that were too short and with their forward hand too far forward.
Where your cheek sits on the comb depends on how high the comb is, where the comb starts behind the wrist/grip, whether and how much the stock is cast, how much drop the stock has and so on. It`s no real indication of fit.
Many clay grounds - especially those associated with gunmakers/gunshops - have a coach who can assess the gunfit required and who can lengthen/shorten/bend the stock appropriately. It`s well worth doing - you will shoot a well fitted cheap gun far better than a poorly fitted expensive gun.
I would go and speak to Litts........they haven`t achieved their status as the UKs largest firearms retailer by being cowboys.

[penpusher]

http://www.litts.co.uk/store.php?fld=cat1&val=guns

[shooter]

thanks grumpy and penpusher.
spoke to litts twice. they were very helpful. invited me to their gunroom.
offered to help and advice me even when i told them i was just "looking around".
i cant to wait to buy my first gun and show it to my friends on the forum. but please dont make fun of this poor mans gun choice.

[shooter]

and grumpy... now that you mention it, i do have long fingers and hands and that gun dealer (the one who told me about the right hand deviated dealer) pointed that out to me and told me that since my fingers and hands were big, it wasnt a big deal.
the more you tell me, the more i want to know and learn.

[Grumpy]

"please dont make fun of this poor mans gun choice."

I see no reason for anyone to make fun of your choice, whatever it is. It`s your decision - nobody elses.

Don`t reject a used gun for fear of it being unreliable - guns are extremely reliable and the money you save will more than cover any possible failure.......which is only going to be a broken spring or striker anyway. I`m trying to think of how many guns I`ve had that have actually broken a spring or striker and its two or three only........and I tend to use guns that are around a hundred years old.....or more !

DON`T, whatever you do, buy a gun on the basis of its name rather than how well it suits you. A gun by a `name` maker that doesn`t suit/fit you is a liability and a waste of money. Don`t be pressurised into buying what a dealer wants you to buy - if you are not totally happy walk away. Its your money to spend how YOU wish. Don`t rush into buying a gun just because you`re in a rush to get one - it`s much better to wait until you find THE gun.
There are an awful lot of good used guns around by makers you have probably never heard of. If you haven`t already done so take a look at the Guntrader website:
http://guntrader.co.uk/

You can guarantee that there are a heck of a lot of members who are very interested in what gun you might buy.......including me.