Side arm of Indian Armed forces

[cottage cheese]

Hi 17H:
All "Stens" these days are chambered in 9mm. I agree with you that sidearms aren't that visible anymore in the Army. It still has a role as a backup weapon in Close Quarters even if the operator is carrying a carbine.

Ashok

Yes, The stens were always 9 mm but they use the browning 9 mm ammo, equivalent to the .38 ACP, which is suitable only for simple blowback mechanisms due to very low pressures generated, therefore makes sten less powerfull compared to say an MP5.

Regards

Ajit

Hi Ajit,

I assume by "browning 9mm ammo", you mean 9mm Parabellum ammo that is used in the Browning GP35 and its derivatives. It wouldn't be very correct to call the ammo Browning 9mm...since it isn't.

Also 38ACP and 9mmPara are pretty different.... in fact totally different other than a nominal similarity in diameter.

The MP5 and the Sten use the same 9mmPara ammo. The MP5 performs better in terms of accuracy because it fires from a delayed closed bolt...albeit at the cost of simplicity and manufacturing expense.

regards,
cc

[timmy]

Cottage Cheese, if I may jump in here to make a tangental point:

It is true that automatic weapons that fire from an open bolt are commonly simple and relatively inexpensive to manufacture.

However, it should be noted that firing an automatic weapon from the open bolt is not always confined to cheap or inaccurate arms.

The original BAR fired from an open bolt. The reason John Browning designed the weapon this way was to avoid "cook off." This can happen in automatic weapons because of excessive heat build up, caused by long automatic fire bursts. When a fresh round is chambered in an excessively hot barrel, it can spontaneously ignite from the high temperatures of the chamber.

Firing from the open bolt tends to keep the chamber cooler and also keeps a fresh round out of the chamber until it is fired.

[cottage cheese]

Cottage Cheese, if I may jump in here to make a tangental point:

It is true that automatic weapons that fire from an open bolt are commonly simple and relatively inexpensive to manufacture.

However, it should be noted that firing an automatic weapon from the open bolt is not always confined to cheap or inaccurate arms.

The original BAR fired from an open bolt. The reason John Browning designed the weapon this way was to avoid "cook off." This can happen in automatic weapons because of excessive heat build up, caused by long automatic fire bursts. When a fresh round is chambered in an excessively hot barrel, it can spontaneously ignite from the high temperatures of the chamber.

Firing from the open bolt tends to keep the chamber cooler and also keeps a fresh round out of the chamber until it is fired.

Couldn't be more true Timmy,

Was just mentioning it in context of the Sten vs MP5 ..... Closer home, the Bren and MAG-58 are examples of fine open bolt guns that aren't by any standards cheap or tacky.

Coming back to the Sten and MP5, cook offs aside, one cannot deny the fact that with the closed bolt of the MP5 there is very little mass movement prior to firing ...thus the resultant tendency to be a little more accurate... though at the close ranges that 9mm SMGs are designed for, all that extra accuracy could be a little redundant...or so.

BTW we're taking this somewhat OT...

Thanks for the useful tangent though!

regards,
cc

[timmy]

Cottage Cheese:

Yes, I couldn't keep my mouth shut, sorry! One couldn't think of a contrast quite like a BAR and a Sten, I guess. Your point about mass slamming forward at the point of firing is very well taken.

[cottage cheese]

Cottage Cheese:

Yes, I couldn't keep my mouth shut, sorry! One couldn't think of a contrast quite like a BAR and a Sten, I guess. Your point about mass slamming forward at the point of firing is very well taken.

[17H]

Thanks CC & Tim for the clarifications.

Regards

Ajit

[hvj1]

Friends,
Just adding to whats going around. The Berettas were imported in significant quantities around 1992-93. Some elite Armoured Regiments received these weapons. Otherwise it is the 1917 clone from IOF, which has extremely poor finish. Rotten sights, scratchy trigger, prone to jamming(double feed). However when fired with both hands and looked after a bit, with a few modifications, the pistol shoots O.K. I have personally fired more than 10,000 rounds with both, Berettas as well as the IOF pistol. The Beretta has a floating barrel, lovely partridge sights and a smooth, smooooooth recoil, very good groups (4 inches- 6 inches with single hand at 25 m). Unfortunately, after 10,000 rounds they start showing signs of wear and tear (which I am sure any reputable pistol will do).
Now , from the combat point of view, the pistol is generally used by the armed forces, only in emergencies, say pilot ejecting out needs a short arm, armoured officers require it to take prisoners (1971 war experience of some officers). It is only the NSG and other Para Commando units who will require a really sophisticated side arm. This is because to shoot a pistol whether it is a 9mm, .45 or any other, one needs a certain level of proficiency (especially with one hand). Further , one needs to be in constant training with the pistol to shoot well. (5 shots consistently in a 1ft.x 1ft target- again single hand at 25m) This type of regular training is done only by the commando units.
So coming back to what is best for the armed forces. I feel that the commandos should go in for the best pistol of any calibre they like. The special forces must decide and get what THEY WANT. Not what some bloody politician wants, who would probably wet his pants/dhoti, if a pistol is fired close by!!!
For others, the IOF clone is GOOD enough (remember proficiency counts). But, IOF must change their mind set and IMPROVE the pistols.

[eljefe]

agree-a handgun is no more a badge of rank as in days of yore, but a specialised tool, and the user must show super proficiency-hence the kill houses and the endless hours of practice.
thats a whole lot of experience you've gathered, HVJ1, like a pilot with 10000hrs under his belt.
Please do share your expertise

[hvj1]

Dear eljefe,
Thank you and yes always willing to share as well as learn from others. Do check out my 'tips on pistol shooting' on shooting sports IFG.
Regards

[Sakobav]

hvj1

So its confirmed IA did purchase Beretta's I though it was just a rumor just like there are sightings of CZ 75 pistols too. Elite armored units would that be Poona, Skinner,Scinde, Hudson or Deccan horse? You meant 1917 pistol thats actually HP 35 Browning 9mm clone made by IOF?

Best

[hvj1]

Dear ngrewal,
That is correct, Browning clones. And looks like you have cavalry background- incidentally, my father served in 17 H, In fact Col. Tarapore and my father were the first two Officers selected from the state forces to join the IA. Col. Tarapore was from Hyderabad State Forces while my father hailed fro the Gwalior State Forces.
Regards

[Sakobav]

hvj1
No I dont have any cavalry background. Kudos on that family relationship with 17H.


Best

[hvj1]

ngrewal
Thanks

-- Sun Sep 20, 2009 10:29 am --

ngrewal
Thanks

[technical]

the iof 9mm a1(hi power) is the sidearm issued to all officers in the IA. all officers upon commission are given a sidearm. sikkim police use beretta 92's whilw special forces make their own purchases ,different from the army. the glock 17 is issued to spec forces also the fn five seven etc. check it up on wiki eaach force has its own unique issue of weapons. many airfoece pilots are issued makarovs as russian aircraft purchased come with makarovs as part of the package. any special forces personnel can have any rifle or pistol issued to them. all officers can have any additional weapons issued to them . but they are usually deposited back in the armoury during posting.

[Gun enthusiast]

Some of the popular side arms of Indian armed forces is
1) Browning pistol 9mm
2) Glock 19 9mm
3) Glock 17 9mm
4) some higher level and para forces officers use sig p320 and beretta m9a3

Regards ,
A.Y.