The need for Magnum cartridges

[penpusher]

Mehul,

Almost all the material on shooting that is there in the mkt here is from the land of the free.One thing that I have noticed is the emphasis on Magnum loads/cartridges for pistols/Revolevrs/Rifles/shotguns meant for hunting.

Have the game animals in the US of A become immune to bullets from the older calibres.Perhaps they have genetically transformed themselves to resist bullets from all non-magnum cartridges

It seems that the 'holy grail' for most hunters in USA is to hunt with a cartridge that would kill regardless of where the animal is hit and drop the animal on the spot. Does anyone make 'poisoned bullets in America ?

Take care,
penpusher

[mehulkamdar]

penpusher,

The power craze is a mad thing and yes, it is very very prevalent in the US though other countries like Norway and Germany are also getting on the bandwagon. Personally, I don't like hard recoiling guns and am not at all fascinated by the real big bores though you may have seen the pictures of some guns that I have shot on the old boards.

This whole business of shooting rounds like the 600 OK or the 12 GAFH is more a case of doing the mile in three minutes than one of killing a lion by shooting him in his dew claw. I have no argument with people who do this but when I buy my first and probably only custom rifle it would be a 30-06. At the very least, I enjoy shooting guns and I would be able to shoot a 30-06 a whole lot more than I would be able to shoot a harder kicking gun. The recoil junkies would differ with me on this, of course, but I am not afraid to say that I don't enjoy recoil. And I can hunt whatever I plan on hunting with my 30-06 without trouble.

Cheers,

Mehul

PS There was a discussion on the so called "magnum" chamberings in Guns and Ammo some years ago. The final consensus was that they were irrelevant.

[Grumpy]

There are two ways of generating energy - to propel a heavy bullet comparitively slowly or a lighweight bullet very rapidly. The latter is the magnum concept. It`s interesting though that the earlier concept produces superior `Knock down` values and is therefore often more effective on game. There has been a realisation that actual energy - in terms of ft lbs or Joules - isn`t the whole story and that `Knock Down` power and Sectional Density relate to the real world rather better.
As far as the rifle calibre `Magnums` are concerned there are hardly any that I consider worthwhile however there is little doubt that many people are impressed by high energy figures........and no doubt consider the extra recoil and muzzle blast worthwhile. Much of it is macho BS in my opinion.
Poison bullets ? I doubt that there is any country in the world where such things are legal. Never heard of them being used and see no reason for their existence.

[penpusher]

The "poisoned bullet" bit is just a joke.A carry over from the I4G yahoo group.

What do you say to this that what can be done with a Magnum load in one calibre can be accomplished by moving up one or two calibres with much less recoil.Being hit by a rain drop at 100kms an hr. and being hit by goods train at 40kms are two very different thing.

Just my thought but given a choice , I would go with a rifle that shoots a heavy bullet at moderate velocity.No danger of having to make that choice in India.The govt. sees to that

Take care,
penpusher

[mehulkamdar]

John,

The "poison bullets" thing is a joke from the old boards where a certain troll I have been fighting with talked about "cyanide coated" bullets and other nonsense out of Marvel comic books. Rest assured that penpusher, as a former armed forces officer, knows his guns well.

Cheers,

Mehul

[Grumpy]

Obviously the `poisoned bullet` thread was before my time on I4G but I did wonder - especially as some of the rather hysterical news reports on the Indian politician who was shot by his brother recently referred to `the poison` effects of the bullets in his body...................
The English version of the Magnum cartridges were developed rather earlier and were described as `Express` - I believe it was Purdey who came up with the term - however they mostly relied on heavier bullets pushed at moderate speeds. The major exception being the superb .375 H&H which more nearly corresponds to the Magnum formula. The .375 H&H filled a niche however......one that other manufacturers have attempted to fill also. Pointless when the original is so good.
There is a reaction against the magnums which has lead to the resurgence of many of the older calibres. People have found that the .470 NE, .404 Gibbs, .416 Rigby, .318 W-R ( actually .330" ) , .333 Jeffery and so on all perform remarkably well - but without the almighty muzzle blast and horrible recoil of the magnum calibres. The 300 grain .333 Jeffery has the highest Sectional Density of any cartridge and was described by John Taylor as `Just about unstoppable`. Of course the big Nitro Express calibres have never really been superceded by any of the magnums - when you need to stop a charging Bull Elephant a big NE is mandatory.
I`ve shot most calibres up to .600 NE and by far the nastiest thing I`ve ever encountered is the .460 Weatherby Magnum - the muzzle blast is horrendous and the recoil appalling. Happily I`ve never had the ( very doubtful ) pleasure of shooting a .50 BMG.

[mehulkamdar]

Grumpy,

I've shot the BMG recently and it was a strange experience with the ultra heavy rifle and the huge muzzle break reducing the recoil to less than a sporting rifle chambering. The huge whoosh from the muzzle break was also something to be experienced though I presume that without ear muffs it would have been painfully loud to hear. I shot at a tree stump at about 150 yards on my partner's brother's home on their family property and the rounds went straight through it. It was fun for a few rounds but, like you, if I had to buy a big bore rifle, I would buy something that I could safely shoot for long hours and enjoy it. Somehow, the 450-400 is a beautiful round in this sense. Vastly powerful and yet very easy to shoot for anyone, even a novice.

Friends who have shot the Weatherby rounds tell me that the 378 is the most painful among them to shoot. Johan knew some German girl who had one made without a muzzle break and said that she enjoyed shooting it. She must have been one masochist is all I can think...

Mehul

[penpusher]

Mehul,

as a former armed forces officer, knows his guns well.

From where did you get the idea that I have been in the armed forces.You have my age wrong as well.I am not young but also not old enough to have retired from the armed forces.You are in for a surprise when you see me.About knowing my guns,I know of only the ones that I have owned/handled and compared to you or other members of the IGC,its very little. Just sufficient to know that poisoned bullet stuff is all nonsense.The journalists in talking about ''lead poisoning from bullets in the body'' just reflect the general ignorance about firearms in India.A product of denying Indians free access to firearms for almost a 100 yrs.

Take care,
penpusher

[eljefe]

Being hit by a rain drop at 100kms an hr. and being hit by goods train at 40kms are two very different thing.

Yeah penpusher,Thats what I ask of my trauma patients-what hit you?GIves me a better idea of how many more damaged bones/organs to look out for...
A lorry would be a high velocity as compared to an auto rickshaw...(God knows, given a good road, our dilli autowallahs will give any formula 1 driver a run for his money!)
As an ex forces man, you mcould probably write a book on penetrative trauma and the human body!!
I found, when under leading a running impala or tommy, and you smack him far back-in the kidneys- with a venerable 7mm of WW1 vintage, as happened a couple of times in S.Africa-drops the animal in the tracks.
NO Magnum-Guess thats more to do with anatomy...

[eljefe]

Grumpy,
I would, in my limited shooting experience, classify a 458 bolt mauser as the vilest weapon I have ever had the misfortune to fire-The 458 came with a 30-06 spare bbl, which i did not deign to fire, going into a major depression after the hammering from the 458
best
Axx

[Mack The Knife]

As an ex forces man, you could....

Pssst...have a look at the post above yours and next time pay attention in class.

Dismissed!

[Vikram]

Freudian motives can explain this love affair with Magnums where they are unnecessary. .270 and 30-06 adequate for most common hunting scenarios. Shot placement is the most important thing. Roy Weatherby went on a Safari to prove the efficacy of his ultra-powerful magnums.Hydraulic shock ( if I remember it correctly) would down the quarry no matter where it is shot was his principle. I saw a couple of pics of him posing with rhinos downed with a single shot of .300 Weatherby magnum. My Pater John, Late of US Cavalry, recounted to me once a funny incident that happened while shooting the fire belcher i.e .460 Weatherby. Will try to dredge it up and post here.

Personally, I believe in shooting only when I am dead certain that I will hit at the spot I am aiming at. I practice to that effect. We owe it to them to make it as less painful as possible. It is better to use what we can shoot the best than the ultra magnums that one can barely manage to hold on to. Having said that, I have no distaste for recoil and willingly indulge in a masochistic voyage on the range.As far as the field is concerned it is what I shoot the best.JMHO.

Best- Vikram

[mehulkamdar]

Vikram,

Enjoying the recoil of a 460 (which Weatherby offer ONLY with a muzzle break) is one thing, shooting a 585 Nyati or 600 OK which puts out a recoil energy of more than 100 ft lbs is a completely different one. Just imagine a 45 Kg weight being dropped onto your shoulder and you'll have the idea.

There is a reason why the fine old Nitro Express rounds from the 450-400 right up to the 465 and 470 were as popular as they were - they offered superb performance and did not recoil as badly as some of the postwar magnums. The prewar Magnums like the 375 were fine rounds and most people can shoot them without trouble at all, but again, between a 375 H&H and a 450-400, the 450-400 hits the target somewhat harder and kicks the shooter less.

Cheers,

Mehul

[chandramohan]

Hi ,I have got few .470cal cartridges .

[chandramohan]

I too found that I possess 7cartiges of .577 Nitro Express of 480 gms ,with muzzle velocity per lbs 1250,copper tubed ,maker Kynoch. If any one interested ?