Rifle question for XL and others...

[timmy]

Folks, I was just talking to my younger son and his son, and it seems Jr. wants to start hunting. He will be 13 next month. He lives in Denver and is all fired up about doing some deer and elk hunting.

Unlike his Dziadzi (me), he doesn't give much of a hoot about having a special or certain kind of hunting rifle (you can see, I have my work cut out for me -- those Mosin Nagant actions in the closet are just waiting for a young man like him to come along and give them some attention!). So, father & son just facetimed me and asked what I thought they should be looking at for young Ben.

I suggested one of those Savage Axis rifles in 308. They are a great deal, available for under $300, and I recall someone here getting one -- was it Baljit? Anyway, I thought that 308 would be good as a short action rifle for a young guy, but still have enough punch to be reasonable on elk. This would leave him enough left over on a $500 budget for a good 'scope.

I'm seeing discount houses selling these things and wonder if it's even worthwhile trying to find a deal online and then finding (and paying) someone with a license to take delivery for us -- maybe they should just go buy one.

Young Ben is crazy about the outdoors and loves hiking and camping, and I know he will be quite keen on scouting prospective hunting areas in Colorado and, after applying for the necessary tags, going out and trying to fill them.

Do you have any comments to offer on the advice I gave? Just remember, I don't think he's quite in the market for going out and buying the sort of stuff we see Herb posting here! At least, not yet!

[prashantsingh]

I think the .308 is a P.B. in India.
Used one recently in England.It was 'shooters'. A Sako. Shot a couple of Roe deer with it.Loved it. One was at over 145 yards.
Looks like a very good choice for a 13 year old.

[thesinfulsaint]

308 has quite a punch specially for someone who hasn't been shooting. I would say start off with 223 (5.56) and then let him know to expect a little more. Also has he ever fired a 22 LR ?

[xl_target]

Tim,
I don't know how big your grandson is but .308 in a light rifle can be a handful for a little guy.
Other calibers that are ideal for younger shooters are .243 Win and 7mm-08 Remington. While just fine for Whitetail, they probably are not suitable for elk though. For Elk, a .308, .30-06, .270 or .280 are more suitable.
The Savage Axis rifle are excellent rifles for the price but also take a look at the new Ruger American rifles. They come in standard (22 inch barrel) and compact (18" barrel). They are priced to compete with the Savage lower end rifles. The compact rifles come with a shorter length of pull for smaller statured shooters.

[youtube][/youtube]
Savage Axis review by Nutnfancy

[youtube][/youtube]
Ruger American review by Nutnfancy. He compares the Savage and Ruger rifles here.

He talks a little too much but he makes some good points about the rifles. Though he talks about a "hammer forged barrel, button rifled". Huhn?

My personal opinion, after running the action on both rifles, is that I don't care for the Savage bolt as much as the Ruger American's bolt. Also the shorter bolt lift of the Ruger American is faster to actuate and helps with scope mounting. A free floated barrel, excellent bedding, weaver mounts. Another thing; if you buy a Ruger firearm, you will have access to some of the most incredible service in the firearms industry. Also it has a perfectly placed Tang Safety. Ya, OK, I'm a little biased towards Ruger so please take my comments with a grain of salt .

The Rem 700 is over twice the price. I don't really care for the Ruger M77 Mark II that much but if you can find one of the original M77's (used), that would be the ticket. However, be aware that before they started making their own barrels, Ruger sourced those older M77 barrels from other people and some were good and some were not. They did have the Tang Safety and fully adjustable trigger though.

[Vikram]

Timmy,

Congratulations. The joys of picking a suitable rifle for the grandson!

You know a lot better than calibres and rifles than I do. However, I would like to throw in my choice for consideration as I do not know how a 13 year old would handle a .308.

How about a 6.5X55? Light on the shoulder, inherently accurate, and capable of going from end to end lengthwise in an elk? I do think that it is capable of bringing down an elk at sensible ranges. They do take the Scandinavian moose with the little 6.5 Swede. JMO.

All the best to little Ben in his quest for a rifle and the pursuit of a big elk.


Best-
Vikram

[timmy]

Gentlemen:

Thanks for your replies! Here's some additional information:

Yes, Little Ben has shot .22, both one of mine and his Dad's. On one excursion, when he'd have been 10, he connived his Uncle (my older son) to let him shoot a Ruger .22 revolver. He did pretty good with it, for a first time, as well. Then, he started working on his Uncle to shoot the 9mm Sig Sauer. He had done so well with the Ruger that his Uncle let him have at it. Little Ben turned in a credible performance with it, too! He was not afraid of the gun at all, with respect to recoil, and when it happened -- the gun fired -- he was fully in control.

So his Dad is going to take Little Ben out with a .30-30, and see how that works out for him. The goal is for a hunt next year.

I think the boy is ready for a trial with Dad's .30-30, and a lot will be known from there about how he might handle a larger rifle.

Regarding specific suggestions:

@Vikram: 6.5x55 -- If one could think of a great all-around caliber for this, 6.5x55 would be it! It is accurate, recoil isn't bad, and even though a bit light, is still quite capable for elk, IMO. I had one of the little Swedish carbines for awhile and still kick myself for getting rid of it. It is a very nice round, and the guns for it are noted for accuracy, too! However, it was established from the beginning of the talk, Little Ben is not at the point of gun appreciation. He sees the gun as a tool to do the job he wants to do. So there's no keenness for using a special rifle, anything will do. Clearly dziadzi (me) needs to work on this area of his upbringing!

@XL: This led me to think of the Savage, which I've read so many glowing reports about. Back 30 years ago, no "real" self-respecting rifleman would touch a cheap Savage 110! They were the bottom of the barrel, compared to most anything else, and certainly were not on the par with FN Mausers and Springfields, which I was enamored with at the time! But the world has turned, and with the old-line hunting "Remchesters" passing the $700 mark, $300 Savages begin to look good -- especially when the shooting world "discovered" that they were quite accurate. One of these is where my thoughts immediately turned. However, I'm going to forward on the Ruger information and see how that strikes the "planning committee" (i.e., Father & Son). Thanks for that tip, because I'd have not thought about it.

@All: I felt that a medium length action was unnecessary, which ruled out .270, .30-'06, and 7mm Mag. When 7mm was brought up, I advised against it, as I consider it overkill for the shooter and the job. I love .30-'06 and am an avowed .270 aficionado, but I felt I needed to keep focused on the "tool" advice they wanted.

.243 would be pretty ideal, except it seems light for elk to me. I know people who hunt elk with them, but it would not be my choice. 7mm-08 is good, but I felt that it wasn't going to offer a whole lot of advantage in the recoil department. It's big offer is, perhaps, range. My thinking was that, working with 308 in the lighter bullet weights could be dealt with, and then 180 elk loads tried before he's ready for the wily wapiti next season.

But, if a good deal came along on 7mm-08, it would certainly be worthwhile to grab it, I think.

I'm going to send them the Ruger information and see how that strikes them.

I appreciate all of the suggestions, and will keep you in the loop. Don't be shy about offering up more, should the mood strike you!

(Side note to Vikram: Your time is coming sooner than you think! It will be wonderful for both of you!)

[Safarigent]

I dont qualify to give anyone advice, but how about a 7x57?
A wonderful calibre with a great MPBR, good penetration with solids, good downrange energy.
Shouldnt it be plentiful for the animals he wants?

[Grumpy]

Are you talking about the ordinary Axis or the youth models ?
The range of available calibres is quite restricted in both the Savage Axis and the Ruger American ranges and neither the 6.5x55 or 7x57 are an option. Ruger used to offer the 6.5x55 in the No.1 but they`ve dropped it in favour of the 6.5/.284 and in the 77 they`re offering the 6.5 Creedmoor. Seems to me that if you want an all-rounder that is effective but doesn`t recoil heftily you are limited to the 7mm/08 ...... which is actually a very useful calibre.
The Axis has had pretty good reviews ..... I think it`s ugly with it looking like the receiver is dropped on top of the stock instead of in it but it`s definitely value for money.
How big is your grandson ? If he can handle a full-sized rifle it`s much better that he should use one because the youth models are compromised with limited calibre choice and short barrels that really limit the bullet velocity. Apart from that, used youth models rifles can be difficult to sell and make considerably less in part ex when the time comes to replace the rifle.
As regards scopes, the Burris Fullfield E1s are excellent value for money ..... and much less expensive than $500.

[Grumpy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7mm-08_Remington

"Its recoil is a bit more than a .243 Win. and less than most loads in a .308 Win. This mild recoil makes it suitable for youth and adults who are new shooters; however, the cartridge serves experienced shooters and hunters equally well.
Howard Brant of Shooting Industry magazine wrote: "the 7mm-08 is a real sleeper as far as the hunting field is concerned. It is a grand cartridge which packs more than sufficient wallop to efficiently down all medium-sized big-game animals found in North America and elsewhere."[3]
Wayne van Zwoll of Petersen's Hunting magazine wrote: "Efficient case design and a bullet weight range suitable for most North American big game make the 7mm-08 a fine choice for all-around hunting. Civil in recoil, it's a perfect match for lightweight, short-action rifles. It has also courted favor on metallic silhouette ranges, where its 140-grain bullets reach 500-yard targets faster and with as much energy as 150-grain .308s."[4] He also described it as "deadly" for elk.
David E. Petzal of Field & Stream, wrote, "The virtues of the 7mm/08 include very light recoil, not much muzzle blast, plenty of bullet weight to do the job, and gilt-edged accuracy." [5]
The 7mm-08, with appropriate loads, meets the required standard for moose hunting in Sweden, Finland, and Norway. Such loads allow it, for that purpose, to be compared favourably with the 6.5x55, 7x57, 7x57R, 300 Savage, 303 British, and some 308 Win. and 270 Win. loads; they have killed many moose.
With appropriately constructed bullets, the cartridge is usable on elk, black bears and hogs."

[timmy]

I dont qualify to give anyone advice, but how about a 7x57?
A wonderful calibre with a great MPBR, good penetration with solids, good downrange energy.
Shouldnt it be plentiful for the animals he wants?

I'm not too sure about that , but 7x57 is a good round. His Dad, (Big Ben) has a Brazilian Mauser in 7x57 that I gave to him years ago.

I'd like to get the boy interested in reloading, too, and all of these calibers: 6.5x55, 7x57, and 308 are great ones to reload. But that's down the road, I guess.

If something can be had that is chambered in 7x57, I would certainly take a look, but I suspect new guns here are all going to be 7mm-08 nowadays.

[TwoRivers]

Tim,

I would go with with a Ruger American in 7-08. The Savage is accurate, but I have trouble getting enthused about an extractor that can be pushed out with your thumb nail, freeing the retaining ball and spring.

Shot placement is the key. With a suitable bullet, the 7-08 is certainly capable of taking an elk. I would consider the .243 too light, except for an experienced hunter and excellent shot. Also, it drops too much of its velocity in a short barrel. The .308 WCF can be a bit much for a new and young shooter.

My choice for a "first" rifle would be a NEF in 7-30, which they don't make. The T-C Contender is probably out of the envisioned price range. The first model was a bit difficult to operate for a small young hand, the current one is easier to open. I am a firm believer in a single-shot for a beginner, cultivates good habits, and is as safe as it can get.

(Hope this makes it, for some reason I've been unable to post.)

[timmy]

Are you talking about the ordinary Axis or the youth models ?
The range of available calibres is quite restricted in both the Savage Axis and the Ruger American ranges and neither the 6.5x55 or 7x57 are an option. Ruger used to offer the 6.5x55 in the No.1 but they`ve dropped it in favour of the 6.5/.284 and in the 77 they`re offering the 6.5 Creedmoor. Seems to me that if you want an all-rounder that is effective but doesn`t recoil heftily you are limited to the 7mm/08 ...... which is actually a very useful calibre.
The Axis has had pretty good reviews ..... I think it`s ugly with it looking like the receiver is dropped on top of the stock instead of in it but it`s definitely value for money.
How big is your grandson ? If he can handle a full-sized rifle it`s much better that he should use one because the youth models are compromised with limited calibre choice and short barrels that really limit the bullet velocity. Apart from that, used youth models rifles can be difficult to sell and make considerably less in part ex when the time comes to replace the rifle.
As regards scopes, the Burris Fullfield E1s are excellent value for money ..... and much less expensive than $500.

I think that the death knell for 6.5x55 in this country is dictated by the larger bolt face size: too big for '06 faced bolts and too small for the Magnum size. With all of the bean counters out there today, it's tough sledding for these rounds. I suspect that's why 7mm-08 was pushed to begin with: actions wouldn't need too much work to move between all of the 308-based rounds.

I have never thought much of the Savage 110s; they are certainly ugly to me! An interesting design of Nicholas Brewer, though, they are cheap to make and one of their historical fortes is that they are easily made up in right and left hand versions with very little tooling changes. But they are supposed to be quite accurate.

Little Ben isn't so large, but I really want to see how he does with his Dad's .30-30. I have also advised them against a youth model that will quickly be outgrown, if possible.

Thanks for this, Grumpy. I've always had a tendency toward 30 caliber vs 7mm (despite liking the 7x57), so if they find something in this range, I will push it. Actually, they are reading this thread, so it's already done!

[timmy]

Tim,

I would go with with a Ruger American in 7-08. The Savage is accurate, but I have trouble getting enthused about an extractor that can be pushed out with your thumb nail, freeing the retaining ball and spring.

Shot placement is the key. With a suitable bullet, the 7-08 is certainly capable of taking an elk. I would consider the .243 too light, except for an experienced hunter and excellent shot. Also, it drops too much of its velocity in a short barrel. The .308 WCF can be a bit much for a new and young shooter.

My choice for a "first" rifle would be a NEF in 7-30, which they don't make. The T-C Contender is probably out of the envisioned price range. The first model was a bit difficult to operate for a small young hand, the current one is easier to open. I am a firm believer in a single-shot for a beginner, cultivates good habits, and is as safe as it can get.

(Hope this makes it, for some reason I've been unable to post.)

Walt, thanks for these observations -- the caliber goes right along with Grumpy's and your rifle observations go along with XL's. I agree about the 243 being light. Like I said, others used it, but I never felt keen about it. Even .25-06 seems light to me, although I carried a 6.5x55 for a season (didn't get anything, though) and didn't worry about it. Like I said, I kick myself for getting rid of that one.

I haven't had time to look through the Ruger information since last night, but will do so soon. Meanwhile, like I said, they will read all of your comments, as well.

Thanks of your input!

(I can't say I'm wild about little "c clip" extractors, either! I once had a 721 Remington in .300 H&H, and with hot loads, the extractor wasn't very reliable. Sometimes, 2 or 3 attempts were needed for it to function. But, at least, I never had to resort to a rod down the barrel!)

[TwoRivers]

I think that the death knell for 6.5x55 in this country is dictated by the larger bolt face size: too big for '06 faced bolts and too small for the Magnum size. With all of the bean counters out there today, it's tough sledding for these rounds. I suspect that's why 7mm-08 was pushed to begin with: actions wouldn't need too much work to move between all of the 308-based rounds.

The difference in diameter is not enough to require a larger bolt face, there is plenty of tolerance in the "standard" bolt face to accept a 6.5x55. "not designed here", and chambered in older rifles as well, though not actually weaker, are most likely the reason. Also, it's too long for the "short" action size, but doesn't require a .30-06 length action with its 3.15" o.a.l.
I started my son with a Winchester M70 in 6.5x55 twenty-five years ago, and it's still his favorite c.f. rifle.

[timmy]

Regarding the 7mm-08 vs 308, I want to say, not only do I have a thing for .30 caliber, but also, when I hunted in Montana, some of that hunting was in what we'd call "dog's hair lodgepole."

Lodgepole Pine was a dominate species in my neck of the woods, and one would often find elk hiding in a stand of them. These trees got their name from the Native Americans using them for tepee poles. in a stand of young ones, where they were all competing for their place in the sun, they would be 15 to 20 feet high and maybe an inch or so in diameter -- like bamboo!

The snow would bend many down and they'd keep growing, but the stand would be like a thicket -- you could spend an hour getting through a small grove of them. But of course, Mr Wily Wapiti could toss back that lovely rack and plow through it like a B-52.

That was the world that 180, 200, and even 220 gr 308 caliber bullets were not unreasonable. However, I'm not sure that Colorado has quite so much of that. a good 175 grain 7mm bullet is a powerful choice, to be sure, for a big critter like an elk.

You all have been giving me a lot of food for thought, and I appreciate it!