Boetie and gun rights

[mundaire]

Every once in a while one comes across an article that reflects ones own thinking so well that it's almost spooky! This is exactly the feeling I got while reading this article on the "American Handgunner" website. I make no bones about the fact that I am as pro-gun as one can get, BUT and this is a big BUT ? I simply DO NOT buy the argument that citizens possessing guns either prevents a tyrannical government from coming to power OR helps replace that government with a better dispensation! History is littered with enough examples to disprove this argument ? just look at our own neighbourhood... Afghanistan is chock a block full of weapons in the hands of civilians, but that hasn't helped it move anywhere close to a free and fair democratic society!

The author extensively quotes from Etienne de la Boetie's "The Discourse of Voluntary Servitude" and one cannot help but draw parallels with India's fight for independence. It seems so much like we have exchanged one set of oppressive rulers (the British) for another (the Politician-Bureaucrat combine)! Boetie's essay seems to have an explanation as to why we Indians have so readily accepted this new dispensation without so much as a whimper. Why is it that so few of us are bothered by our governments repeated infringements of civil liberties? Why does the vast majority not protest the rampant corruption that ails our institutions? And why, why is no one even willing to listen (let alone act)? Boetie's essay seems to have some pretty interesting answers... a disturbing analysis of human nature ? check it out and draw your own conculsions.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[mehulkamdar]

Abhijeet,

Good to see you back and posting often.

There is one reason why people are afraid to speak up for their rights and that is fear of what would happen to them if they did this. After 1857 when some Indians tried to fight for the country's freedom and theyw ere severely disarmed by the British and their allies, all of whom were Indian, it took an organiser like Mahatma Gandhi to get them to come together to agitate for their rights.

In Independent India we have seen our freedoms go down the draine specially under Congress governments - I remember the 1976 Supreme Court judgement which said that the government did not have to guarantee the Right to Life in an Emergency. In 1984 our gun ownership rights were taken away, possibly forever. The avergae Indian is harassed by the system for everything he wants to do in connection with the government - whether it is getting a passport, a driver's license, filing his tax returns, clearing customs etc he cannot get anything done without either paying a bribe, or, if he is well connected, then the system grovels before him like a wh**e.

Today, unfortunately, the self-satisfied upper classes and the middle classes are more than ready to give ever more freedoms up while they get to do their thing. The fight against the continuously increasing tyranny is, unfortunately, being fought by criminal groups like the Naxalites. If only the chattering classes in India were more active politically, it would not be difficult at all for them to get rid of the completely corrupt and anti national babu-neta farce that runs our lives and replace them with good people. The last time we had a problem it took great men like Mahatma Gandhi, Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel and Jawaharlal Nehru. I am sure that in time someone would do what those people did to our former colonial rulers to our present overlords.

I am an optimist in this regard. Cheers,

Mehul

[Vikram]

Abhijeet,

I only grabbed a few lines. He makes some interesting points, which may or may not be factually correct.

example

Gandhi wanted the English out of India but did not oppose Indians ruling themselves, even though government involves coercion and force.

Utterly wrong.The Mahatma was the biggest anarchist of all.He wanted the State to wither away giving rise to self-sustaining villages living in harmony with rest, forming the base to a global society.

And as you rightly said, what about Pakistan.There were more AKs in the civilian hands than in the Army.How many dictatorships so far? What about Iraq and Iran?

A lot of these writers indulge in sophistry and either deliberately or unknowingly ignore certain details.

Best-Vikram

Best-Vikram

[mundaire]

Quite right, if anything Gandhi was an anarchist on the lines of Henry David Thoreu, whose writings did influence his (Gandhi's) thinking in no small measure!

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[mehulkamdar]

Viikram,

The "more AK 47s in the hands of the public than the Pakistani army" analogy that is offered is flawed, illogical and a cooked up piece of disinformation from anti gunners. The Pakistani army useds G 3s - and probably uses a Heckler and Kock 5.56 mm rifle today, not the AK series of weapons. Also, the permission to own full auto firearms in Pakistan is only in the tribal areas, not across the country. That said, Pakistan gun laws are definitely more shooter friendly than Indian ones are.

If, indeed, there is a country whose people have more illegal firearms than it's army, it is India. The UN estimates are of something like 40 million illegal firearms in the country.

Mehul

[eljefe]

Mehul,
Read in an old india today -circa 1984, there were more gun licence holders in UP-55,000 than the entire police force of the state-20,000 then,the licencees included a blind guy!
I'm sure the statistics havent changed much( I'm the latest applicant!)
Agree with Abhijeet about relationship of gunowners and state of freedom/democracy! At one end of the spectrum are 'the meek shall inherit the earth' type of lawful gun owners like us, and then there were the Branch Davidians...it was a fiasco allright, for all the wrong reasons.
There doesent seem to be a middle path for gun owners in socially/emotionally volatile countries like ours.
best
Axx

[Vikram]

Mehul,

The G-3 is the standard issue.However, many Chinese Type-56 are used by many infantry units in Pakistan. The issue is not about the type of guns used by the army.Gun ownership,legal or illegal, does not always ensure people's rights or democracy. A few years back, there was a drive in Pakistan to confiscate illegal weapons and there were literally hundreds of thousands of weapons either surrendered or confiscated. Automatic weapons are in deed prohibited out of the tribal belt and hence the confiscation drive.

We,too in India, have a lot of legal and illegal guns and I frankly suspect they will be used to defend their rights against the State or in the interest of democracy. Depends on how one looks at his/her guns.

It's not just the Pakistan or middle-east where gun ownership,legal or illegal, abounds disproportionately to democracy.Latin America or Africa also fall in these lines.

Writers in US tend to centre their perspective based on their history and it is also a career for them. One size does not fit all. As Jefe says, there are many shades to the issue.

And, yes Sir, Pakistani citizens enjoy much better gun rights than we do and I dearly hope one day we do,too.

Best- Vikram

[mehulkamdar]

Vikram,

The SKS 56 is a semi auto rifle which has not been made in decades, tha AK a full auto with the exception of some recent models that were made in Romania, Bulgaria etc for sale to civilians in the USA. I seriously doubt that the Pakistanis would dump that kind of junk on their policemen's hands instead of much better stuff that they already have available. It still leads to what I said - the line about "more AKs in the hands of the Pakistani people than the Pakistani Army is pure, undiluted compost.

The fact is that civilian or military governments alike have not interfered much in the day to day lives of the Pakistani people as much as those in India have. Pakistani governments have not tried to disarm PAkistanis - Musharraf tried this in Waziristan and the army has lost more people there post 9/11 than tribals have been killed. At present the effort to disarm the tribal areas is effectively dead.

There has been extensive armchair posturing by the anti gunners as well as lies that they have tossed out with abandon. It would take someone with a blindfold, not blinkers to see the facts and recognise that the crap being fed to the world is just that - anti gun crap. Whether it is Rebecca Peters of the IANSA or the posturing of Indian bureaucrats and journalists, the stinking stuff is not suddenly going to turn into a fragrant bouquet just because they say so.

Mehul

[penpusher]

What fun it must be to be a Balochi in the 'Land of the Pure' and un-trampled gun rights. Jolly good fun I would say being straffed by helicopters and hit by artillery.Then there is the history of use of poison gas against the Balochis exercising their right to protest through the barrel of a gun.In a land seemingly overflowing with AK's and all manner of other arms, they seem to be singularly ill armed. Still using 303's to snipe at the Paki army.

As far as 'the tribal areas as heaven for gun enthusiasts' argument goes , may I remind everyone that it is an uncommonly unpleasant area to live in.I would certainly feel uncomfortable being there.Wouldn't want some Pathan to bump me off as revenge for some fore-father killed in a clash with Sikh troops at a time when even my grand-father was running around in shorts.Thats how things go in these areas. A rifle is not just a toy/accessory/sports equipement but an essential tool for survival. Usefull for avenging insults to your honour,whether perceived or real and for continuing generations old enemities,even though the reasons for them may be long forgotten. Also to bump off your own mother/ sister/ daughter / cousin for bringing 'dishonour' to the family/community/ village ( Indians do it in a more rudimentary manner).


Still want to be there?

Take care,
penpusher

[Vikram]

Mehul,

I was referring to the Chinese Type 56, the 47 clone.And, SKS carbines are in service with the Pak police. Pakistan was only one example. As I repeatedly say, one size does not fit all.

I don't think I am a part of anti-gun crowd. I simply don't believe guns ensure democracy.I believe it's the other way round.

Best-

Vikram

[mehulkamdar]

penpusher,

Balochistan's sardars tried breaking away from Pakistan. No country can afford to let a group break away. Sympathise with the Baloch separatists and you're dangerously close to supporting Kashmiri terrorists. This is little more than a bogus argument.

As far as WANA, FATA etc are concerned, try and read the websites of Dawn, The Daily Times or the Frontier Post for some information. Also Janes Defence Review - Indian newspapers are pathetically inept at examining affairs west of the border. The sad fact is that India pales in comparison to a dictatorship however you spin the various issues within Pakistan.

Vikram,

Belief and evidence are never really synonymous. When one wants to believe in something, facts are of little consequence.

Mehul

[penpusher]

Mehul,

The MWFP ,Sindh and Balochistan have always fascinated me and have read a great deal about the area and its people right from what the Brits had to say to modern works on them (these seem to be inadequate at most times,surprising how well informed and observant some of the Brit officials could be)

Indian newspapers are pathetically inept at examining affairs west of the border

Seems to reflect the general ignorance of the Indian public.Sometime back I met a gentleman from what we call Mumbai now.At that time there was some tension oevr Kashmir and the conversation veered to this.The man in question then stated that the Pakis ate piegons as a way of emphasising how cruel and heartless they could be.But at that time I could not understand what the man meant by that.I have no objection to eating piegon provided its properly cooked.Could not tell him that though.Most of the Indians are fed on stereotypes perpetuated by the media.I also dislike people who go teary eyed talking about how Indians and Pakis are both the same people.For gods sake accept the fact that Pakistan is a seperate country and that no matter what the similarities,the Pakis have their own destinies.

I disagree with the view that somehow the Pak state protects the rights of its citizens better than the Indian state.India has dealt with insurgencies without using air power or poison gas.I have no sympathies with the Baloch sardars, but the fact is that the manner in which the uprising is being handled in the provinse is something that leaves a lot to be desired.The Bangladeshis were Pak citizens when they were subjected to brutalities on an un-imaginable scale.The mass rape of Bangla women should not be forgotten.After the creation of Bangladesh, a huge no. of abortions were carried out by mostly western aid organisations of women kept in Paki army camps.Similarly the manner in which the Kashmiris were subjected to atrocities by the Paki army and the Kabailis in 1947-48 and latter in '65,truly shows what the Pak state thinks about the rights of its own citizens and those for whom they claim to speak.As per a friend in the Army,one of the incentives offered to the Jehadis to come to Kashmir in the initial phases of the influx of foreign mercenaries, were the Kashmiri women.So much for liberating opressed Kashmiris.Now that has been given up because it proved to be highly counter productive.

Take care,
penpusher

[mehulkamdar]

penpusher,

On the whole India is definitely an established democracy while Pakistan certainly isn't. Elected governments in Pakistan come up every once in a while preceded as well as replaced by dictatorships. That said, India has seen horrors during the 1970s under Indira GAndhi and Sanjay that were unimaginable. After she ewas returned to power, Indira GAndhi meddled with Sri Lanka and initially trained the LTTE who ended up killing her son at a later stage. Yes, India has not used helicopter gunships against Indians so far, but had it been upto people like Indira or RAjiv, we might have seen this happen.

As far as gun ownership rights are concerned, the Pakistanis must be ruing the British for the permission that they gave during the Raj years to the Northwestern tribals to own guns without any control over them. Musharraf sent his army into the tribal areas after 9/11 and has seen it beaten badly on more than one occasion since. It is now too late - the tribals are not going to be disarmed - their guns are the reason why.

As far as India is concerned, I am not at all sure why a democracy needs to fear it's own people. Indira and Rajiv who were responsible for our terrible gun ownership laws certainly had more than a little to fear - theyw ere the closest to dictators that India has come after independence - it is incomprehensible why other governments have not thrown those repressive laws away.

Best wishes,

Mehul

[penpusher]

Mehul,

the Pakistanis must be ruing the British for the permission that they gave during the Raj years to the Northwestern tribals to own guns

The Brits were just making a virtue of a necessity.The Pathans would have made very good poster boys for the NRAI.'Over my dead body' indeed. Moreover it made the NWF a sort of training ground for the soldiers.Our British masters used to pay the frontier tribes to keep them quite and had no compuctions about burning villages and bombing them from the air when the tribals got restive. Just continuing the policy of Ranjit Singh's General Hari Singh Nalwa,though the almost no Brit historian would accept it, after all how could any sound policy be formulated by a native. Read the book 'Soldier Sahibs' and you would think that the Brits who "settled" the Frontier were demi-gods.

Share your views about Indira and Rajiv and the party they belonged to.The 'PARTY' still doesn't seem to realise that the days when it dominated the political scene are long gone.I hope it goes the way of the Dodo.M Gandhi had wanted the Congress to be dissolved after India gained Independence.I wish he had lived to ensure this.

Take care,
penpusher

PS-At one time you had asked about books to read about the the uprising of 1857.Would get a list ready.Seem to remember some from my University days(have an MA in Mod Indian History)

[mehulkamdar]

penpusher,

If you would like to do an article on the history of the First War of Independence I would be able to get it published on a prestigious website. There are many there who enjoy the history of India and bemoan the divisions of 1947 - this year being the 150th anniversary of that great struggle, I should have no problems getting this done. Just e-mail me and let me know if you;re interested.

As far as the Congress is concerned, the Mahatma was absolutely right. Hope it goes the way of the Raj - the dodo might be resurrected with genetic engineering. The Raj never will - and both equally imply the repression of the Indian people.

Cheers,

Mehul