my new ww greener gp martini

[Grumpy]

Don`t forget the horrendous cost of shipping guns ........

[timmy]

Greener's M-H is in such nice shape. Are they to be found like that in India often? What about the UK?

I have a huge "thing" for the Martini Henry action; I think it is simply the best. The strength, simplicity, lock time, and looks are some of the things I like about it.

I would love to find one in nice shape like this. It might even derail my desire for an RFI 410 musket.

[Grumpy]

Greener GP shotguns with the Martini Action ( `Henry` refers to Alexander Henry`s polygonal rifling ) are very common here in the UK. The shotguns make no money at all except, as I said, for the multichoke and Trap versions.
The Greener miniature Martini action ( which is quite possibly the BSA action - nobody knows ) was used for various .22 lr rifles ( the large action was also used for .22 lr rifles usually with Parker rifling - a rifled liner ) and is popular for rebuilding into sporting rifles as are the various BSA Martini .22 lr rifles. There is so much metal in the Martini actions that they can easily be reshaped. The Martini action was actually invented by Henry Peabody - an American - and improved by Friedrich von Martini who was Swiss.
The Martin Henry rifles - in .577/.450 and .303 - are also commonly available. The .577/.450 calibre is considered obsolete so the rifles can be purchased `off ticket` in the UK ....... provided you don`t shoot them. Both are a lot more expensive than Greener GP shotguns however.
I see no reason why the GP shotgun action couldn`t be used as the basis for a rifle.
I have a big thing for both tilting ( Martini ) and falling block rifles - they`re just so elegant.

[timmy]

Peabody did invent the basic action, but if you look at them, they have a huge old hammer like everything else in the first half of the 19th Century. Martini made the elegant striker firing system that is so simple, quick, and has good feel. That trigger and sear is very similar to the SMLE.

To me, the Martini Henry is the most perfect single shot. (I like to call them a tipping block, because it really doesn't fall like a Sharps, Farquarson, or Ruger #1). It doesn't depend on fancy milling of raceways like the falling blocks -- it just uses that big old pin at the back, which gives it that nice hump shape. But it is strong and one of the few single shots that can chamber stuff like the .303

I would like one in 303 or better yet, 45-70, which I have dies for. Best would be 577/450, but that would be expensive.

The little action used for those Rook rifles (or whatever) that you refer to, also used for .22 trainers, is a lovely little thing! Even though one of those in .22 Hornet would be quite nice, I don't much care -- any Martini Henry is a good one.

Unlike Sharps or Rolling Blocks, there is a lot of leverage with that lever, to eject spent cases. The trapdoor wasn't so bad at that, but it is a weak action. The Rolling Block is strong, but it has that huge old sledge hammer hammer and not a lot of extraction power.

The Martini Henry is as strong as the best of them, has lock time as good as the best of them (like the Sharps Borchardt), it is as simple as the best, and has extraction as good as the best of them. It also, to my eye, is the best looking of them all.

The Empire had the best single shot, IMO. For me, it wins on all counts.

[Grumpy]

The early .303 black powder rifles were Martini Metfords - converted from Martini Henry .577/.450s. The later nitro powder .303 rifles were Martini Enfields.
About four months ago I saw a very interesting Alex Henry falling block sporting rifle in .577/.450. Like the Farquharson it used an external hammer ( the Farquarson hammer is external to the falling block but contained within the frame ) but the hammer was visible and fell into a channel cut into the rear and top of the falling block. I presume it was an attempt to evade the Farquharson/Gibbs patent. A very attractive rifle in wonderful, restored condition. It didn`t make much money - partly because of being chambered for the .577/450 and partly because of it not being a Farquharson.

[Vikram]

Might just have to change my travel plans the next time around, and include the UK at auction time. At those prices I'd take them all. Probably should schedule a few extra weeks for the paperwork.

Seriously, as Grumpy said, we have been to auctions where the Greener GPs in very good condition were sold at £15. A couple of .22lrs went for a fiver! They were not bad, mind you.

However, I found a Greener GP trap gun in exceptional condition that was sold for £300, which is a bit surprising.


Best-
Vikram

[TwoRivers]

To me, the Martini Henry is the most perfect single shot. (I like to call them a tipping block, because it really doesn't fall like a Sharps, Farquarson, or Ruger #1). It doesn't depend on fancy milling of raceways like the falling blocks -- it just uses that big old pin at the back, which gives it that nice hump shape. But it is strong and one of the few single shots that can chamber stuff like the .303

That "big old pin at the back" is a split retaining pin with its only purpose to keep the block in the receiver. It contributes nothing to the locking. The action requires some very intricate machining of the receiver, a circular recess in the back wall to mate with the breech block's locking "hump". The Belgians solved this problem ingeniously with a subframe, as found in the small BSA actions. When chambered to modern cartridges on the .30-06 case, the big .577/.450 action allows considerable case stretching, despite that massive receiver. But, they are neat, and I like them.

[timmy]

Yes, agreed, the pin at the back functions as a locator, and the boss ("hump" as you call it) is the part that takes the side thrust in the frame, similar to the toggle link (M1873 & M1876) Winchester actions. You are right and I stand corrected on this.

By Belgians, I assume you mean Francotte? Their "Francotte System" is used on the Cadets (http://www.martinihenry.com/cadet.htm) which are a very slick little action. But my understanding is that the Francotte System was also used on the large rifles, as well, some of the recent Nepali "Long Tail" imports being examples of these. This is a picture of said large Nepali Francotte System rifle:



While the Francotte System may make manufacture and disassembly easier, and the Cadet actions have always been noted for being slick (the few that I've handled certainly were), I cannot see how they would be stronger than the original design.

I would note that the 30-06 operates at a higher pressure than .303, and that even more modern guns (like the M1895 Winchester) ran into the "stretchy receiver" issue with that cartridge.

As you say, they are indeed neat!

[Grumpy]

The Cadet action - the BSA model 4 - is actually stronger than the full-sized Martin Henry. Considerably smaller in size but, presumably, the quality of the steel improved between 1871 and 1909. The Model 4s are known to have been tested to 60,000 psi. The later models 12, 13, 15 and 12/15 are, presumably, even stronger as the width of the receiver was increased from 1" to 1 3/16" with the extra width being accounted for in the action walls.

[TwoRivers]

To 60,000 psi, but with which cartridge? Without the base diameter of the round being tested, "psi" tells us little about the strength of an action.

[timmy]

While the Francotte System may make manufacture and disassembly easier, and the Cadet actions have always been noted for being slick (the few that I've handled certainly were), I cannot see how they would be stronger than the original design.

Sorry, I don't think I was clear. I'm not seeing how the Francotte System would be stronger than the original Martini-Henry action. For instance, comparing a large Martini-Henry to the same size Francotte System rifle.

Some years back, Ken Waters tested a number of rifles in .45=70 (a large diameter round). As I recall the tests he found the Martini Henry sufficiently strong enough to take loads used in Ruger #3s and Browning B78s. The rifles were divided into three groups: The weakest were like the Trapdoor, then Winchester M1886 level, and finally the modern rifles. I will see if I can find that article again.

[Grumpy]

I don`t which cartridge - frustratingly the records don`t say but I imagine it must have been a .310 Cadet loaded to extreme pressure. It can`t have been a .22 lr and I can`t imagine it was the .297/.230.
Here`s one of the references to that `extreme` proof load:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=bjhy ... si&f=false

[timmy]

Grumpy, the book isn't coming up. May I type the pertinent part from my copy?

According to a 1955 data circular, these Martini actions were tested with proof loads of up to 60,000 psi in order to determine what range of cartridges they sic would be safe in them.

This is from the entry for the 310 Cadet cartridge, Cartridges of the World, 8th edition, p322. I'm sure that the author is Frank C Barnes.

[Grumpy]

Yes, that`s it - page 409.
Unfortunately it doesn`t specify what the cartridge used in that proof testing was ..... It might be reasonable to assume the .310 Cadet but that really would be an assumption only.
El Jefe is another Martini fan and he found this Martini extractor mod for rimless cases a few weeks ago. This is SO cool ! :

He was planning a .223 based on a Martini for his daughter. A cheap alternative ( ammo wise ) to having to use the rimmed .222R, .22 Hornet or 5.6x50R.

[TwoRivers]

Bob Snapp, of Snapp's Gunshop, Clare, Michigan, was the first here in the US to make a rimless extractor for the cadet action. Pretty much the same principle as double rifle extractors for rimless rounds. Frank deHaas also came up with a design, Hoffman was another one. Think there are some down-under ones as well. Me, I stick to rimmed cartridges. And, the Martini action I really like is the .32-40 size. I have seen them, like the Cadet, both in Francotte and original pattern (by W-R). Perfect. Not that I pass up the .303 sized one.