Self defence and hard recoiling handguns

A posts related to self defence/ home defence. Please post anything related to legal aspects in the 'Legal Eagle' section.
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mundaire
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Self defence and hard recoiling handguns

Post by mundaire » Sat May 12, 2007 1:41 pm

This post comes from Bubbha making an observation related to recoil in handguns and their use in self-defence situations. So the question - how useful is shooting a high recoil gun in a fast paced and adrenalin charged self defence situation?

Stopping power vs. control and accuracy - not just for the first shot, but for the follow up shots as well...

NOTE - By high recoil I DO NOT mean those crazy .600 cal type monsters, but a typical small/ medium sized handgun that one would typically choose as a "carry" gun. Lets say for the sake of argument we consider calibre up till .454 Casull (though I think that's a bit over the top myself, but had to put a limit somewhere).

My own take on this is simple - if it's comfortable to carry and you can shoot it well, go for it!

Bring it on ;)

Cheers!
Abhijeet
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Re: Self defence and hard recoiling handguns

Post by Risala » Sat May 12, 2007 2:01 pm

I would go for control & accuracy anytime.
Miss one pump in a few more.
Ideally would like to avoid such situation's though.
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Sanjay

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Post by Olly » Sat May 12, 2007 4:23 pm

In my experience, more than 95% of the crooks only carry knives and are out to rob you rather than harm you. To shoot requires some guts which the small timers usually lack... i am talking about Delhi, a metropolitan city, and nowhere else...

Ideally the first coming round should be a blank and the following ones lethal...

Yes, there is a debate about the stopping power of a pistol / revolver round... right from .22 to .45

mehulkamdar

Re: Self defence and hard recoiling handguns

Post by mehulkamdar » Sat May 12, 2007 4:49 pm

Abhijeet,

As you know, I am not fond of recoil myself, but I have shot more than a few different handguns belonging to friends, the biggest of which was a heavy Desert Eagle in 500 which had virtually no recoil though holding the thing up and shooting it was a headache because it was so damned heavy. IMHO most "service class" handguns are made to be used in the heat of action and if someone is taught to use them by an experienced coach, he/she could shoot them without difficulty. A 454 CAsull is not a service round, but the 45 ACP and the slightly smaller 45 GAP, 40 S&W, 9mm Para, 357 mag, 38 Special etc and smaller can be comfortably used by most people without trouble if they are taught how to.

Just ask Amit - he was a little concerned about shooting Praveen's 10mm 1911 and 357 S&W 686 revolver when we went out to shoot his beautiful 22, but when he first shot the 10mm, his surprised expression and comment was that it did not seem to hurt at all. He was using a two handed grip and went on to shoot several dozen rounds on that evening.

Also, Mark would be posting pictures of his little girl shooting his 45 as we discussed last night. Unless you're shooting a particularly heavy recoiler which could physically hurt you because of the very severe kick, with proper training and practice I am sure most people could shoot a service class handgun well.

If a recoil hater like me could do this, then I am sure that anyone else could. :D

Cheers!

penpusher

Re: Self defence and hard recoiling handguns

Post by penpusher » Sat May 12, 2007 10:30 pm

Check out this page http://www.strange-mecha.com/jsdf/jgsdf/jgsdf5.htm

The minimum caliber according to me is the one at the top.The one at the bottom is the one that I would prefer.

This argument is academic for us Indians for reasons that are there before everybody.The only handguns for which you can readily get a license (ie. NPB handguns) and ammo. ,hardly come in the category of hard recoiling handguns.You shoot what you get and one handgun at a time. If you are lucky at that.

mehulkamdar

Re: Self defence and hard recoiling handguns

Post by mehulkamdar » Sun May 13, 2007 12:05 am

penpusher,

I would like to go one or several steps above that and ask for a battery of Brahmos in my backyard. :lol:

Thanks for a good hu8moured post.

Cheers!

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Re: Self defence and hard recoiling handguns

Post by Grumpy » Sun May 13, 2007 5:23 am

"a typical small/ medium sized handgun that one would typically choose as a "carry" gun. Lets say for the sake of argument we consider calibre up till .454 Casull"

Abhijeet, how you can put `small/medium sized handgun` and `.454 Casull` in the same sentence is beyond my comprehension.

The .454 Casull is primarily a hunting calibre and recoil is pretty substantial. To help negate the recoil the revolvers chambered for the .454 Casull have either a large frame or an extra large frame. A large frame revolver is not a good personal defence weapon because it`s just too big, too bulky and too heavy to carry around......not to mention the fact that no matter how big you are you are not going to be able to keep a .454 Casull dead on target for an immediate second shot. The .454 Casull developes double the muzzle energy of a .44 mag.

Recoil affects averyone differently: My daughter when in her mid teens quite happily shot with everything up to .357 mag and .45 ACP. My second sons best friend is a massive guy - 6` 4" and 125 kg - who shoots a lot but uses 20-Bore 21 gm loads because he is recoil sensitive and finds a 12-Bore very uncomfortable to shoot. Walter Bell was extremely recoil sensitive and used his 6.5 and 7 mm rifles almost exclusively. Recoil sensitivity is not a matter of being a wuss - it is a physiological fact. Similarly being able to handle large amounts of recoil doesn`t make one a `real man`.......... ( I know a woman who worked as an armed bodyguard/armed security operative all around the world. She was no `butch` but quite tall and very slim. She could also outshoot all but the top few PP shooters in the UK at the time. Didn`t make her `macho`....... just VERY good. )

Anybody who is so unfamiliar with their handgun that using it in a defensive situation causes them to miss because of excessive recoil or `adrenaline rush` is a bloody idiot. Familiarisation with any personal defence weapon is essential. If a guns recoil is too much for you to comfortably handle - with or without `adrenaline rush` - you need to change it for something else.

mehulkamdar

Re: Self defence and hard recoiling handguns

Post by mehulkamdar » Sun May 13, 2007 7:19 am

Grumpy,

Smith and Wesson offer a 2" barreled 500 S&W revolver these days. Don't ask me why - I think it is insane like I am sure you do. :lol: Can't see what you could hunt with a 2" barreled 500 so I'm guessing that it is a defensive firearm of sorts. :roll:

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Re: Self defence and hard recoiling handguns

Post by Grumpy » Sun May 13, 2007 7:32 am

I think they`re supposed to be `compact` ( ! ) trail guns for scaring off Grizzlies in Alaska and the like....... Personal defence against BIIIIG opposition !
There have been dafter ideas......can`t think of many off-hand though......and another couple of inches on the barrel would make the pistol both more effective and easier to shoot.
I`m trying to think who, when asked to design a `trail` gun came up with a compensated 5" .44 mag. Made sense to me then and still does.

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Re: Self defence and hard recoiling handguns

Post by Bubbha Singh » Sun May 13, 2007 8:32 am

Some of what you may think about the subject of self-defense is most likely a function of where you live and the culture in which you have been brought up.

My take on it is this: if I find myself having to draw a weapon and point it at someone, it is because they are threatening my life, or the life of someone close by, and they have become a target, at least until they cease their aggression.

No warning shots, no first round blanks, simply a mental exercise of drawing an X across their torso, from opposite shoulders to opposite hips, and applying repeated gunfire towards the juncture of those two imaginary lines.

If that sounds cold and cruel, forgive me, but first reconsider why it is that you might be carrying a weapon, and look deep inside and ask if its presence on your person might be a liability, instead of an asset.

Now, as to recoil versus weapon mass: hits in the 10-ring count more than anything else with me, whether it's with my SIG P-229 in .357 SIG, or my little Beretta 3032 "Tomcat" in .32 ACP, your 7.65 x 17. If you can control it well enough to get accurate, rapid back-up shots, and hiding it on your person isn't an impossibility, use it for carry. If not, don't.

Finding your best combination of recoil control and caliber performance is vital in defensive shooting, given the constraints of the area in which you live and what might or might not be available to you. Nine months out of the year I carry the aforementioned P-229; the other three, I tend to carry one of two single-stack 9MM pistols, one that handles 9MM, the other 9MM +P.

I'd much rather face someone in an adversarial encounter with a large, heavy-recoiling pistol that they cannot control, rather than dealing with a determined foe carrying a smaller, lighter pistol that can be unholstered or otherwise deployed and fired in a rapid fashion with optimal accuracy. Each and every time I'll bet my life on the slower draw and the difficulty in reacquiring the target post-first shot on the hand cannon, rather than someone with a relatively dinky gun and a steady hand.

Of course, your mileage may vary.

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Re: Self defence and hard recoiling handguns

Post by Mark » Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:29 am

mehulkamdar";p="19991 wrote: <SNIPPED TEXT>
Also, Mark would be posting pictures of his little girl shooting his 45 as we discussed last night. Unless you're shooting a particularly heavy recoiler which could physically hurt you because of the very severe kick, with proper training and practice I am sure most people could shoot a service class handgun well.

If a recoil hater like me could do this, then I am sure that anyone else could. :D

Cheers!
Well it has only been a month, but here's a pic of my 9 year old son shooting a 45 ACP (with a 200 grain bullet at about 900 fps).

Image

You can see that the slide has come back, and the empty case is about 10 inches out of the gun. Please note the 2 handed hold, and while the gun has pushed his upper body back a little, and unbent his elbows, when the slide snaps forward he can bring the muzzle back down on target. (Or at least that is how it is supposed to work!)

At any rate, I'll be the first to admit there are some painfully hard recoiling guns out there, there seems to be a degree of misconception between actual recoil and proper shooting form often as well.
"What if he had no knife? In that case he would not be a good bushman so there is no need to consider the possibility." H.A. Lindsay, 1947

mehulkamdar

Re: Self defence and hard recoiling handguns

Post by mehulkamdar » Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:10 am

Mark,

Thanks for posting the pic of Colin shooting your 1911.

Should put to rest the BS theory of hard recoiling handguns - pun wholly intended. :mrgreen:

Cheers!

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Re: Self defence and hard recoiling handguns

Post by cottage cheese » Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:43 am

In a very narrow local perspective, I discovered an odd thing. Maybe its only me but I'd fired a FN GP35 9mm (Service), and a 1911A1, side by side. Both were fed on regular KF fodder. I found the GP35 to produce a sharp and brisk(Though by no means, overwhelming), while the 1911 produced a gentler and 'warmer' recoil.
It could be attributed to the difference in mass and CG of the respective pistols...or the ergonomics... or just plain docile 'dud-ish' KF shots.

Any thoughts on this?

penpusher

Re: Self defence and hard recoiling handguns

Post by penpusher » Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:57 am

Never knew that KF made .45ACP ammo.

penpusher
Last edited by penpusher on Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Self defence and hard recoiling handguns

Post by cottage cheese » Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:16 pm

penpusher";p="21363 wrote:Never knew that KF made .45ACP ammo.

penpusher
Nor did I..until I came across crates of the stuff in The Nagaland police Inventory- They still use Thompson M1s and M3 Grease Guns!

:)

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