An Intro to my Old Lady 32Winchester Special

[Grumpy]

Using 30-30 ammo won`t affect the feeding or extraction but it is a horrible compromise and accuracy will be hopeless. Filing the bullets by hand is just going to make the accuracy problem even worse.
By the way, what factory 30-30 bullet isn`t suitable for use in a lever action mag tube ?
The best improvement ( BY FAR ) you can make to your rifle is to use .32 Special ammo.
If you get an extended magazine tube you need to get the appropriate spring but I see no point in bothering as you would just be squirting more ammo in ( approximately ) the direction you want it to go without reloading

[sonuvecv]

Thanks Mark , XL Target, I Decide to go with your advice to left magazine as it is.

[sonuvecv]

Filing the bullets by hand is just going to make the accuracy problem even worse.

Grumpy can you please elaborate filing the bullet by hand
By the way, what factory 30-30 bullet isn`t suitable for use in a lever action mag tube ?
The b

est improvement ( BY FAR ) you can make to your rifle is to use .32 Special ammo.[/quote] do you mean 32 Winchester special ammo or something else as .32 special ammo is not available in India

I see no point in bothering as you would just be squirting more ammo in ( approximately ) the direction you want it to go without reloading

please elaborate (sorry for my poor knowledge of popular lingo of gun lovers

[Grumpy]

Apparently the owner of this gun is having the bullets rounded-off by hand filing .... presumably to avoid recoil detonation in the magazine tube HOWEVER the 30-30 was designed for use in lever action rifles and all 30-30 bullets have blunt noses. I don`t understand why the 30-30 bullets are being filed as it would appear to be an utterly pointless exercise and, in addition, hand filing will cause the bullets to be extremely inaccurate as they will no longer be perfectly formed.
Apparently .32 Win Sp ammunition is unavailable in India .... but someone has pointed out that 30-30 ammunition will `fit` the chamber and can be fired from the rifle .... which is true - but only to an extent. The 30-30 case will fit in the chamber but the neck won`t fit .... because it won`t touch the chamber walls and the bullet will won`t `fit` the barrel because it is undersize and therefore won`t engage the rifling. The 32 win Sp has a bullet diameter of .321" ( 8.2mm ) whilst the 30-30 has a bullet diameter of .308" ( 7.8mm. ) It is akin to putting a .177 air rifle pellet down the barrel of a .22 air rifle - it will be fired out of the end of the barrel but it won`t be accurate.
The owner of this rifle want to adds an extended magazine tube which will hold more cartridges. All this will do is to allow him to shoot his highly 30-30 inaccurate ammunition from his .32 Win Sp rifle more quickly. I used the word `squirt` deliberately as the accuracy will be similar to that of a garden hose.
Yes, by .32 Sp I mean .32 Win Sp.
There isn`t any safety problem with this procedure that I can envisage but it`s EXTREMELY bad practice. If this was an American website and someone proposed using 30-30 ammo in a rifle chambered for the .32 Win Special they would generate an immediate response from a stream of people all saying `Don`t do it !` My major concern in this matter is that there seems to be a very large number of old firearms in India, often in obscure or uncommon calibres, for which ammunition is either difficult to source or completely unavailable. If it is suggested that one calibre might be usable in a firearm chambered for another calibre it will encourage experimentation amongst the ignorant or foolish. There are plenty of cartridges of calibres that will fit in the chambers of firearms of a different calibre with potentially lethal consequences.

[dev]

How about getting some 32 spl or what the relevant cartridge is from overseas. Bring in fifty and use them sparingly, why do crazy experiments with such a beauty?
Dunno why more members aren't frothing the mouth over this?

[sonuvecv]

Apparently the owner of this gun is having the bullets rounded-off by hand filing .... presumably to avoid recoil detonation in the magazine tube HOWEVER the 30-30 was designed for use in lever action rifles and all 30-30 bullets have blunt noses. I don`t understand why the 30-30 bullets are being filed as it would appear to be an utterly pointless exercise and, in addition, hand filing will cause the bullets to be extremely inaccurate as they will no longer be perfectly formed.
Apparently .32 Win Sp ammunition is unavailable in India .... but someone has pointed out that 30-30 ammunition will `fit` the chamber and can be fired from the rifle .... which is true - but only to an extent. The 30-30 case will fit in the chamber but the neck won`t fit .... because it won`t touch the chamber walls and the bullet will won`t `fit` the barrel because it is undersize and therefore won`t engage the rifling. The 32 win Sp has a bullet diameter of .321" ( 8.2mm ) whilst the 30-30 has a bullet diameter of .308" ( 7.8mm. ) It is akin to putting a .177 air rifle pellet down the barrel of a .22 air rifle - it will be fired out of the end of the barrel but it won`t be accurate.
The owner of this rifle want to adds an extended magazine tube which will hold more cartridges. All this will do is to allow him to shoot his highly 30-30 inaccurate ammunition from his .32 Win Sp rifle more quickly. I used the word `squirt` deliberately as the accuracy will be similar to that of a garden hose.
Yes, by .32 Sp I mean .32 Win Sp.
There isn`t any safety problem with this procedure that I can envisage but it`s EXTREMELY bad practice. If this was an American website and someone proposed using 30-30 ammo in a rifle chambered for the .32 Win Special they would generate an immediate response from a stream of people all saying `Don`t do it !` My major concern in this matter is that there seems to be a very large number of old firearms in India, often in obscure or uncommon calibres, for which ammunition is either difficult to source or completely unavailable. If it is suggested that one calibre might be usable in a firearm chambered for another calibre it will encourage experimentation amongst the ignorant or foolish. There are plenty of cartridges of calibres that will fit in the chambers of firearms of a different calibre with potentially lethal consequences.

Thank you sir for the information, I am still having 4 cartidge of 32 WS,now I will load my rifle with these only,whenever taking my rifle with me.
yes sir it is foolish to use cartridge of another calibre but then there is no choice left with me(like most of Indians].Reloading is not allowed,and I am not going to foreign trip either.My uncle had decided to sell the rifle to a gun dealer who offered to pay 15000 rs for the beauty, another proposition was to rechamber it for the available bores in India (believe me its a common practice in chambal area and gun smiths take full advantage of lack of knowledgeof gun owners) other is using adapters for rifle.
I am satisfied that Atleast I am still having this rifle in orignall conditon and keeping my finger crossed and waiting for import ban to be lifted or Visiting USA .But one thing is for sure I am not going to fire 30-30 cartidge from it thanks again

[BowMan]

Sir, please do not modify it in any way. Leave it just the way it is.

+1 please

Oh! It is a takedown model! How cool!

[BowMan]

hand filing will cause the bullets to be extremely inaccurate as they will no longer be perfectly formed.

With due respect to you sire, a .32 Win Special rifle firing 30-30 Win rounds will be infinitely more accurate than a .32 Win Special rifle with no ammunition...

There isn`t any safety problem with this procedure that I can envisage but it`s EXTREMELY bad practice.

Presumably because .32 Win Sp and .30-30 Win have the same maximum chamber pressure (SAAMI) - 42,000 psi. If you could understand the agony of a chap owning a gun in perfect working order but unable to find any ammo on the face of this earth....this will give you a feel of the circumstances. In any case this is a better alternative than giving the gun to a butcher or a gunsmith who tries to alter the chamber to accommodate some other round...

[Grumpy]

Frankly I don`t give a damn whether you respect me or not - as far as I`m concerned this is thoroughly bad practice and shouldn`t be encouraged. It was my impression that this forum was called `Indians for Guns` - not `Indians for being bloody stupid with guns`, furthermore, in any firearms forum anywhere else in the world, anyone that proposed using 30-30 ammo in a rifle chambered for .32 Win Sp would be told not to do so vehemently and repeatedly.
You obviously don`t understand chambers pressures or SAAMI ratings. SAAMI quote the maximum pressures that should be realised - not the ACTUAL pressure REALISED for any and every cartridge. The SAAMI MAXIMUM chamber pressure for the two calibres is the same but that doesn`t mean that the pressures achieved will be 42,000 psi - in any commercial loading it is going to be somewhat less with fresh ammunition. According to what you seem to understand of chamber pressures, if you were to hammer a .32 Win Sp into a 30-30 chamber the maximum pressure realised would be a maximum 42,000psi. I can assure you that if you were stupid enough to try this the actual chamber pressure would be sky high - so much more that you`ld actually be handling a hand grenade, not a rifle. It should also be remembered that powder characteristics change over time, change with storage conditions, change according to temperature and change due to the powder packing down. Usually those changes are deleterious to performance but the problem with old ammunition is that the powder characteristics are completely unpredictable and could result in FAR higher pressures than specified.
The chamber pressures go out of the window anyway as the 30-30 neck is unsupported in a .32 Win Sp chamber. With this and the very undersize bullet it could be anticipated that the pressures realised would be low ..... but there are far too many unpredictable factors involved ..... Including the fact that with the totally pointless and unnecessary bullet filing the bullet seating might no longer be true.
I can only think of one cartridge that a rifle chambered in .32 Win Sp could be rechambered for but happily that is too large to feed in most lever action rifles .... which is just as well as the SAAMI max pressure rating is almost inevitably going to be far lower than any cartridges likely to be found in India will actually achieve. No, I won`t say what the cartridge is - and if you can figure it out I would suggest that you keep quiet because the combination would be EXTREMELY dangerous to anyone stupid enough to try it.
You might think me a old-womanish, unsympathetic, overly conservative and a thorough kill-joy on the matter but I couldn`t care less. If IFG is to have any credence it should be promoting responsible firearms practice which this thread certainly isn`t and it should have been pulled by the moderators as soon as the ammo swap was mentioned.

[BowMan]

I'm sorry but I disagree with you for reasons that are already discussed in this thread.

What needs to be understood is there is something that is perfectly safe and there is something which is only reasonably safe. What is perfectly safe is always reasonable (unless there is an overkill) but what is only reasonable is never perfect.

I agree with TImmy and TwoRivers, in this case it is reasonably safe to fire 30-30 rounds in a rifle chambered for .32 Win Special and the cases are perfectly matched in size and factory loads are of same pressure.

However and obviously there will be a fallout to this because the .32 bullet (in actual a .321 or 8.2 mm bullet) is larger in diameter to the 30-30 (which is a .308 or 7.8 mm bullet) by .4 millimetres which implies there will not be full obturation of the bullet and the bullet will tumble through the barrel and consequently there will be loss of accuracy. If this practice is prolonged then there is also be possible damage to the gun barrel.

However let us not forget the Indian scenario, there is very little chance of the gun firing more than 50 rounds in a year. So it will be years if not decades before these detrimental effects begin to show.

I do not see any possibility of a catastrophe as you make it out to be, only a slow and continuous detrimental effect to the barrel. Of course the only caveat to this is the use of pointed bullets in a tubular magazine - KA BOOM.

If however members who have more experience in firearms and hand loading disagree than the moderators may please step in and I would be happy to stand corrected.

I am also begening to appreciate and understand your user id a bit more...

[Grumpy]

What pointed 30-30 bullets would they be ? Show me any commercial 30-30 ammo with pointed bullet - apart from the Hornady LeveRevolution loads which deliberately have a polymer tip which won`t ignite a primer .
The barrel shouldn`t suffer by the way .... the throat will however.
The cases are NOT perfectly matched as the necks are different sizes. The neck is part of the case.
The chamber pressures are NOT the same. The maximum chamber pressure recommended by SAAMI for both cartridges is the same which is a very different matter. Even if the two cartridges did make the same pressure that would only be in the chamber for which they were intended ..... and definitely NOT for a 30-30 cartridge in a .32 Win Sp chamber.
And it doesn`t matter whether Timmy, TwoRivers or God himself says this is alright it`s still bad practice and I object to it.
Yup, Grumpy because I disagree with you. You`ld obviously prefer me to be the `Happy hypocrite`.

[winnie_the_pooh]

Not the first time I have seen some one go down this route.Pretty stupid I must say but depressingly common.I have had a fellow claim that the .315 cartridge works very well in a M1 Garand.

A fellow inherits an 'imported' rifle for which there is no ammo in the market. As a result,if he sells it,he would not get a lot for the rifle.If he wants to buy another imported rifle for which ammo is available,he will have to shell out a lot of cash.So the desire to find a 'substitute'. Fingers and eyes are something that he does not value as he has had them since birth....and as far as the gun blowing up and killing him,that thought has probably never occurred to him.After all,when people claim that the .315 rifle comes with an aluminium bolt .......and dealers to whom they turn for advice in such matters reaffirm it,you can not expect them to understand a lot about what happens when a gun is fired.


The owner of the rifle would be better served by the IOF 30-06 or even the much maligned .315 rifle....but then they are not imported

What the fellow is doing or intends to do is STUPID...STUPID....STUPID

[Safarigent]

If its a family heirloom and you want to keep it with you, drill a hold in the chamber and hang it up on the wall under section 45c.
Buy an IOF rifle on the vacated endorsement, which is cheaper, ammo is available for all the chamberings etc etc.
If you want to preserve it in its present state, scrounge ammo for it.
I am not as knowledgeable as anyone else but substituting ammo of a different calibre sounds not like the best of plans

[sonuvecv]

you are right winnie and Grumpy Sir,It is absolutely foolish.

But than the bowman summarize it having a rifle with no bullet is worst than having rifle with alternate cartidges(though as advice by senior members these 30-30 cartidges will not be fired by this rifle,but it will remain in my cartidge belt) .As far as target practice is concerned I do have indian 315 on my father's liscence.From 1982 whenthe rifle was bought in my family only 16 cartidges was fired(out of 20 bought with rifle).
My knowledge is nothing,and please pardon me if I sound harsh but Grumpy sir ,Do you really think that removal of thread and by not discussing you are leaving gunlovers likeus( with 0 Knowledge) totally on the mercy of the crooked gunsmiths and dealers who just care about my hand and fingers only till I count cash to give them.So love it or loath it but please do not ignore it.

[Grumpy]

Please don`t misunderstand me - I really can appreciate how frustrating it must be to have a gun and not be able to shoot it.....and how desperate the ridiculous Indian firearms laws must make many of you feel. I won`t condone what I consider to be any form of bad practice however and especially not something as fundamental as this.
One thing I must say concerning overly restrictive firearms legislation is that all of you in India who are interested in guns and shooting must remain vigilant against planned increased restrictions and actively vocal in attempting to improve the legislation you currently have. There are two reasons that governments restrict firearms ownership and useage - the first is because the executive is frightened of it`s citizenry and the second is because of smug superiority - the `We are protecting you from yourselves` attitude. Both are forms of oppression. I suspect that India falls in the the first category .... and we in the UK are stuck with the second. It is ridiculous when legislation is so oppressive that it causes it citizens to risk physically harming themselves.
I don`t want to offend anyones political sensibilities but something I heard the other night made me smile: In an interview with a couple of guys living and working on a new development near Delhi which has run into infrastructure problems - road links are inadequate, they suffer power cuts several times a week, etc. One guy said `The trouble with the government is that they couldn`t organise a piss-up in a brewery`. `No, agreed the other, `That`s because they don`t have to - they`re all round at Sonia`s drinking her wine`.