Chinese incursion in Eastern Ladakh

[nagarifle]

do you know that chinese amour is no good? it has a chink in it.

please do not underestimate the chin chin bhai. with the chin chin bhia we are dealing with plans within plans, when one thinks they have won, years after you will find you have actually lost.

[Skyman]

The levels of pollution are driving people out of the cities.

[essdee1972]

As I said, the Chinese do not care about manpower losses. A few years back, there was this great hullabaloo over massive under-reporting of deaths in an earthquake, remember? No journalist (whatever there are) was allowed within miles of the site, international aid workers were not allowed in, government officials were merrily siphoning off aid funds, etc. without a whimper of protest from the human rights wallahs!!

Their cities, it is true, are under a massive pollution threat. A colleague who recently visited Shanghai, Guangzhou, etc. tells me that he kept coughing all the time. Their bridges, dams, etc. are taking an amazing toll on the environment. Even the recent earthquake has been attributed to massive dams and the load of millions of tons of water making for seismic instability (just like the Tehri Dam in Uttarakhand). They will go ahead with their economic / military agenda, no matter what the cost to their own citizens.

We, however, have to look at our democratic politics (aka vote banks). We can't even remove slums which are a massive threat to Mumbai airport, whereas Chinese government regularly removes legal property holders! 24 hours to vacate, else the 'dozers will start rolling.

We can just keep hoping that they will collapse internally, that their massive bridges and dams and high-rises will one day pull them down. Even if the middle class revolts, the tanks and fighters can be used against them, just as they are being used today against peaceful Buddhist monks in Tibet.

And as for our armed forces, I know that their bravery and self-sacrifice will stand the test, when it comes, but bravery and sacrifice, without proper equipment, can only take us so far. Even in '62, with .303s against Type 56s, hopelessly outnumbered, out-gunned, out-generaled, and out-politicianned, our boys fought on, to the proverbial last drop of blood. I have read somewhere that Chinese casualties were 10 times Indian casualties (our armed forces brothers can kindly enlighten me on this). They just don't care, but we have to - we can't let our boys in camo die needlessly!

[nagarifle]

true our fighters are brave. even with underprofoming equipment. and lets us not forget our neibours on the west side who all so bhai bhai with chin chin bhai. which way will they go?

first we need to clean up the monky house. pronto.

[Skyman]

Chinese casualties were very high because they kept coming in waves, not knowing that out soldiers would fire everything they had before retreating to the next position.They assumed we would tuck tail looking at their numbers.Only to be met with well aimed lead.

Today, i'm afraid it is we who will pay the price.

[nagarifle]

Chinese casualties were very high because they kept coming in waves, not knowing that out soldiers would fire everything they had before retreating to the next position.They assumed we would tuck tail looking at their numbers.Only to be met with well aimed lead.

Today, i'm afraid it is we who will pay the price.

that is the old doctrine no longer used

[airgun_novice]

The Chinese philosophy is simple - "Wherever Chinese went that region is their's". As hvj1 pointed out that given a chance they would claim Andhra - I say they would claim Kerala showing their fishing nets at Cochin and the Communist government there !

1. What stops US from taking any firm steps against the Chinese ?
A. Over USD 300 billion worth of Treasury Bonds. Truth is the biggest communist power on this planet has the biggest Capitalist power on this planet by its you-know-what. So only thing that US can do is shift its naval power from Latitude, Longitude (X1, Y1) to (X2, Y2) in the Indian Ocean or the South China Sea.

2. When US can not do anything against Communist China, what do you think can India do ?
A. Err, ummh, err, I mean , err, umph .... so on.

Forget all the massive rhetoric that one can lay - I, like most of 130 crore Indians have my own list of things that I would like to heap upon PRC - what can India really bring down upon PRC ? NOTHING.

Do you need some top notch weapon to shoot 50 invaders at the distance of 300m ? Do you not think a mere .303 would have done the job - only if GOI allowed ? Why should there be a need for GOI permission to shoot 50 invaders when Indian soldiers are equipped with working weapons to do just the same ?

Are Indian soldiers scared of PRC ? NO.

Is the Indian population afriad of PRC ? NO.

Is the current GOI scared of PRC ? NO... OR MAYBE - scared that the bribes and kickbacks would stop. And a few skeletons would stumble out. So what if India as a Nation has a small price to pay in terms of its pride and integrity ?

Someone just mentioned that it's not good when 100 lions are led by one sheep - point is, they would be mighty stupid to be led so - the lions should tear that sheep into pieces, gobble it down and then lead the charge themselves. And mind you - India today is not led by sheep but by wolves and hyenas. And WE, THE PEOPLE (OF INDIA) are responsible of this morbid state of affairs. We pay the price now in terms of land today - in yuan, probably in days to come...

regs
A.

[timmy]

As I said, the Chinese do not care about manpower losses. A few years back, there was this great hullabaloo over massive under-reporting of deaths in an earthquake, remember? No journalist (whatever there are) was allowed within miles of the site, international aid workers were not allowed in, government officials were merrily siphoning off aid funds, etc. without a whimper of protest from the human rights wallahs!!

Their cities, it is true, are under a massive pollution threat. A colleague who recently visited Shanghai, Guangzhou, etc. tells me that he kept coughing all the time. Their bridges, dams, etc. are taking an amazing toll on the environment. Even the recent earthquake has been attributed to massive dams and the load of millions of tons of water making for seismic instability (just like the Tehri Dam in Uttarakhand). They will go ahead with their economic / military agenda, no matter what the cost to their own citizens.

Exactly: they have both short term threats and long term ones. The air quality is only the part that the ordinary person can see when visiting the cities. Less apparent is the industrial pollution of the ground and water, and it is severe enough that it was under scrutiny as far back as the 1980s, that I know of. So these things are known to the authorities, as well, and for a long time, but still they plunge onward.

I don't think that there is a lot wrong with their expertise when it comes to things like dam building. I would worry more about the corners that were cut for political or economic reasons, which affect the design. Still, one can look at the Teton Dam disaster in Idaho and see that in the USA, there are senseless screw-ups on the civil engineering front. Were one of their massive new dams to let go, it would be a catastrophe of gargantuan proportions.

The strain of the water from that 3 Gorges Dam must be tremendous. Such things make me wonder, too.

They do have the army to enforce the governments will on the people, but the army, after all, is drawn from the people. I am recalling that in Tsarist Russian and the Shah's Iran, the Army had enough and threw its lot in with the people. These things do happen.

1. What stops US from taking any firm steps against the Chinese ?
A. Over USD 300 billion worth of Treasury Bonds. Truth is the biggest communist power on this planet has the biggest Capitalist power on this planet by its you-know-what. So only thing that US can do is shift its naval power from Latitude, Longitude (X1, Y1) to (X2, Y2) in the Indian Ocean or the South China Sea.

It doesn't quite work that way, although it definitely is a factor. The Chinese Communist government is actually running the second largest capitalistic system on earth, and scooping up a lot of money in the process. Their trade war tactics are no different than the ones used by the British, French, Germans, and Americans 100 years ago, so it is not as if our leaders do not have the lessons of history before them.

It is true that, during the Suez Crisis of 1956, the Eisenhower threatened Eden with dumping British paper on the markets, with the result of turning the British Pound into peanuts. However, there was more to it than that, and Suez was really Britain's last hurrah as a Great Power and their digression in to a client state during the Cold War. There were many other "levers" working against an independent British policy at the time, besides the economic one.

That's not true with China. They hold a tremendous amount of US paper, and they could dump it on the market and ruin us, but they would also bankrupt their own economy, not only now, but for the future, since their continued prosperity is predicated on access to US markets, which would cease. They are more akin to the bank that has loaned so much to the borrower that they are in bed together, for better or for worse.

For sure, the thirst of American consumers for gadgets and toys, and the desire of American capital to be salesmen rather than manufacturers has brought the USA to a precarious position from many perspectives - economically, security-wise, etc. No doubt, there are limitations on foreign policy choices because of this. However, the matter is not so clear-cut as you portray it, and the Chinese are a long way from barking orders at the USA. If this were so, those islands they are quibbling with Japan about would have been gobbled up in a second a long time ago, and perhaps, if you recall the events of 1962, this provocation they are pursuing in Ladakh would also be a lot further down the road than it is now.

Regarding the shift in naval power, you are a bit behind the times, not only in the deployments, but in the joint exercises with the Indian Navy in the Indian Ocean.

[winnie_the_pooh]

The last time I checked the Chinese soldiers had not become bullet proof.They are long way away from wearing their undies on the outside and putting on a cape

The PLA has not seen a battle since the Vietnam debacle.Lots of things that look good on paper do not look the same way when the first bullet is fired.Don't underestimate the Chinese but no need to over estimate them as well.

The party that was in power in 1962 is in power now. Nehru and Menon played a major role in the drubbing that the Indian Army eventually got.Something that the Congress would like to forget.Old memories is probably what is responsible for the present desire of the govt. to wish it all away.

The Chinese wish to right the perceived wrongs of colonial times and establish akhand China Picking up a fight with ALL your neighbours is probably not the right way to establish your sphere of influence.But then the country is ruled by a communist dictatorship and such regimes perceive things differently from the rest of the world.

[airgun_novice]

Dear Tim,

I agree with you, but partially. The amount of US paper that the PRC wields is so huge, that US can not call its bluff without ruining its own credibility. Remember "When the US sneezes, the entire world catches the cold" - so when and if the US goes down the entire (civilized) world goes down. The Communist Chinese know that quite well. US is still a decent country (even post-Kennedy era) to care about the world, even with its vested interests, due to the American public.

So when the PRC and the US have to do a Titanic, the US and the world will go down but the PRC - well it will simply CLOSE its DOORS - like it did in 1948 for decades. How many Chinese civilians died then due to famine and lack of food and medical facilities ? Millions - did the Communist regime there care ? Did the civilians rise up against that regime ? Answer to both is a resounding "NO". When the push comes to a shove the PRC will not hesitate to do just that, just to bring chaos to the world - and US knows it. Hence Uncle Sam will for reasons of sanity sit tight with his hands tied - no kinky overtones here.

Very few Indians know that in 1962, it was, thanks to JFK's threat that PRC withdrew from Tawang and from their earlier plans to eat their Chow in Kolkata. Now it's come to light that our PM then had also requested JFK for a direct intervention on India's behalf - this was at the time when India had a formidable Air Force vis-a-vis barely 3 war-worthy PRC aircraft. Yes, it's rather unfortunate that Indians are unaware of American contribution then, thanks to the Nehruvian Socialism heaped upon us.

But that was history - time when American manufacturing was at its zenith. Today PRC exports basic American necessities like baby food and toiletries. Why just that - I remember after the 9-11 when US Govt was busy whipping up American nationalist sentiments and people were busy hoisting US flags on their porches and windows - who supplied those "in demand" flags ? PRC !!! Yup it was the PRC that laughed its way to the bank as average American fumed and fretted about the attack on his country. That's also a historical fact, ain't it ?

There are a lot of exercises between US-Indo Navies and commandos alike - but Sir, to what avail ? We are looking at a pathetic situation where 50 rounds from an old WW II vintage .303 would have taken care of a simple invasion and also sent out a strong message in return. It will be the GOI that will decide what to push and what to pull and unfortunately all such exercises will be of no use, due to lack of political will. Anyway, when PRC blasted a few missiles all the way over Taiwan in full presence of the US Navy, what did it do ? Nothing except "committing itself to the safety of Taiwan or *Chinese* Taipei". When PRC cut down a US spy plane to every square-inch of its metal and returned it in polythene bags to the US, what did it do ? Nothing. How come the US still accepts "One China" and "Tibet being under PRC's undisputed suzerainty" policy in spite of arming Taiwan and having helped the Dalai Lama escape into India ?

I know and totally accept candidly that today in the entire world, the US is the only power that can literally sink the entire PLAN and down the entire PLAF in matter of weeks; yet it gets forced by the PRC into geo-political silence and submission. This is the bitter truth of today. This is the US - comparatively, India is way over the horizon. With current rudderless leadership, we Indians do not stand a chance.

The reason (as per me) for this invasion is manifold - first, to test Indian waters after all the talk about what a strong RM (Def Minister) India has. Next, to show the South Asian countries not to rely on India and the US as far as the South China Sea dispute is concerned. Finally, to show that the only blue sea navy here is spineless and not even as ascertaining as smaller Philippine, Vietnamese, Indonesian and Japanese navies. This will force these South China Sea bordering nations redraw their assessment on India's capacity to stand by them in time of need. It will also send a strong signal to land-based martial elements in Afghanistan that PRC and not India has to be the mainstay there post 2014 when US and NATO say "Bye-Bye" to them. After all, it just took a bunch (company) of 50 - and now, by some reports, 20 PLA to stifle the entire wannabe Super Power. Land grabbing is just secondary - prime objective is to make a laughing stock of India post the 50th anniversary year of the Great Kick in Indian Hiney of 1962. And PRC has succeeded.

My guess ? They will withdraw in time for the new Premier to arrive in India to once again get India's commitment on Tibet and One China and talk of how peaceful relations exist between PRC and India - a lesson to be learnt by other (SCS) neighbors egged on by external forces (read the US). May be later a few million $$$ will be transferred into numbered accounts of certain elements of GOI for the "good boy/ girl" behavior. And the same elements will chirp how Gandhian way of non-violence and dialog solved the so-called crisis that could have been blown into a full-fledged war.

regs
A.

[airgun_novice]

[SNIP]

The Chinese wish to right the perceived wrongs of colonial times and establish akhand China Picking up a fight with ALL your neighbours is probably not the right way to establish your sphere of influence.But then the country is ruled by a communist dictatorship and such regimes perceive things differently from the rest of the world.

Dear WTP,
As much I dislike the current political situation and India going on back-foot, [DELETED] as now irrelevant... They took advantage of our weak position and weaker resolution to fight back. Fault is not theirs, but ours - we as a Nation allowed this situation to develop. [DELETED] as now irrelevant
regs
A.

PS: Wonder how you edited the earlier post with out it getting marked as edited ?

[Skyman]

Let us not forget, after everything is said and done if it comes to war, the Chinese will go all out.Will we?

[Kittu]

we should not go to the war unless its necessorroy.its just a tactict employed by china to drag us.china is notgoing to attacck us from that said line.its their tactcts if they intend to attacct us it will be very far away from where we a expet attack.

[timmy]

Dear Tim,

I agree with you, but partially. The amount of US paper that the PRC wields is so huge, that US can not call its bluff without ruining its own credibility.

The whole situation is an economic version of the Cold War, where the Soviets had more and bigger missiles, while the USA had more reliable and more accurate ones based on viable missile, submarine, and aircraft platforms. Even the most blood thirsty crazies knew that this sort of war was "MAD": Mutually Assured Destruction. The same is true in this case: Whichever side "pulls the trigger" to an economic war will be destroyed along with the "enemy," and the rest of the world will go down the pipes with it.

The US has a lot of allies and influences that will pressure the USA not to pull that trigger, because they all will suffer, as well, which goes along with your saying of:

Remember "When the US sneezes, the entire world catches the cold" - so when and if the US goes down the entire (civilized) world goes down.

So when the PRC and the US have to do a Titanic, the US and the world will go down but the PRC - well it will simply CLOSE its DOORS - like it did in 1948 for decades. How many Chinese civilians died then due to famine and lack of food and medical facilities ? Millions - did the Communist regime there care ? Did the civilians rise up against that regime ? Answer to both is a resounding "NO". When the push comes to a shove the PRC will not hesitate to do just that, just to bring chaos to the world - and US knows it.

I'm not seeing this quite in the same light. China is not an autarky: it is not self-sufficient in all things the way that the USA was, say, in the late 1800s. If the present global order breaks down, those 100s of millions who have left the farm to head for the cities and their descendants will be out of work and out of food. These folks will be the relatives of those in the Army. My take is that this, for sure, will cause severe upheavals in China and will destabilize the regime. The government will not take this laying down, for sure, but when they deploy the Army, there will be openings for peripheral forces to assert themselves, such as in Tibet and the Uighurs. Bejing will have so many fires to put out that they will be like a long-tailed cat in a room full of rockers.

Very few Indians know that in 1962, it was, thanks to JFK's threat that PRC withdrew from Tawang and from their earlier plans to eat their Chow in Kolkata. Now it's come to light that our PM then had also requested JFK for a direct intervention on India's behalf - this was at the time when India had a formidable Air Force vis-a-vis barely 3 war-worthy PRC aircraft. Yes, it's rather unfortunate that Indians are unaware of American contribution then, thanks to the Nehruvian Socialism heaped upon us.

I did not know that the average Indian was not aware of this. The Chinese backed off in a hurry when a carrier with nuclear capability was sent to show the flag. Nehru obviously didn't want this to be known, because it directly impacted his Non-Aligned Movement. Still, JFK was a bit over a barrel, as well, because it was hardly in the USA's interests to see India invaded, dismembered, or worse. So, JFK had little choice but to ride to the rescue.

India may have had the air superiority over China at the time, but what did that mean? A conventional bombing threat based on Liberators? They were a drop in the bucket compared to what the Allies fielded against Germany, and even that was not sufficient to bring Germany down by itself. Against a huge nation like China, the range of B24s was hardly sufficient to do the job, even if they had been armed with nuclear devices. I don't fault your assessment of a mismatch, but I don't think it changed the balance of power at the time.

Many have pointed out the SMLE vs AK47 mismatch, but this does not go to the heart of the conflict. That is illustrated by the Nehru/Menon vs Mao/Chou En-Lai comparison, and that comparison of war leaders needs no more illustration than 1962 provides.

But that was history - time when American manufacturing was at its zenith. Today PRC exports basic American necessities like baby food and toiletries. Why just that - I remember after the 9-11 when US Govt was busy whipping up American nationalist sentiments and people were busy hoisting US flags on their porches and windows - who supplied those "in demand" flags ? PRC !!! Yup it was the PRC that laughed its way to the bank as average American fumed and fretted about the attack on his country. That's also a historical fact, ain't it ?

What you point out here is disgusting to me: Like Thatcher in the UK, her acolyte here, Reagan, reflected big business's desire to break the unions and gobble up the wealth of the middle class, which is what has happened in both countries. All of the labor-intensive industries moved overseas in both countries, the wealthy became salesmen and investors, rather than manufacturers, and wealth for the last 40 years has increasingly moved into a small segment of both populations. This is why in the USA, so many people were furious that the President would bail out GM and Chrysler: the auto industry is the only remaining bastion of union power in the USA and many preferred to see unions die and buy their cars from Japan and Korea (and soon, China) than to keep a strategic industry on our shores.

The American working class was no better: they preferred to aspire to join the middle class, rather than to maintain union solidarity. The Union movement has been toothless and/or dead in this country for at least 50 years -- my Dad always dated it from the merging of the AFL with the CIO in the mid 50s -- because everyone thought that "doing their own thing" was better than sticking together. As a young man, I was a very active union steward and saw how people refused to accept this and exercise responsible union membership. Now these people have what they want: the freedom to do as they please, while they work their minimum wage job with no benefits as a convenience store clerk.

The average American on the street is also guilty: It was better to sell themselves like Egyptians to the pharaohs that run the banks by going into debt up to their ears, so they could buy electronic gadgets, furniture that used to be made by Americans but was off shored, and foreign cars, amongst other "necessary" shiny objects.

We have sold ourselves down the river here and every group in society is guilty as homemade sin. But the crime isn't that American flags are made overseas -- as Khrushchev rightly points out in his memoirs, "freedom" to most here means nothing more than how many shoes or potatoes they can buy for a kopek. What is the horrible thing is that machine tools and the new machine tools of the information age, computers, software, and ICs, have been off shored, as well. I lived by the largest steel works in the world as a youth. Now, they tore down the rail mills because all of our railroad rails are made overseas.

Big business would rather import Chinese steel, even though it costs just as much to import Chinese steel as it does to make it here. They find that allowing the Chinese government to be their goons is preferable to dealing with the unions here and seeing other people have some health insurance, like they themselves enjoy.

It's not flags -- its is our strategic sinew that has been off shored, and that is the terrible thing we've gotten ourselves into here.

When PRC cut down a US spy plane to every square-inch of its metal and returned it in polythene bags to the US, what did it do ? Nothing. How come the US still accepts "One China" and "Tibet being under PRC's undisputed suzerainty" policy in spite of arming Taiwan and having helped the Dalai Lama escape into India ?

What did the USA do? What did the USA do when North Korea captured the USS Pueblo in international waters? (Did you know that the USS Pueblo is the second-oldest commissioned ship in the US Navy, second only to the USS Constitution, as it sits in a North Korean port to this very day?) What did the USA do when the Khmer Rouge boarded and captured the USS Mayaguez? What was done when the North Koreans blew up a Korean airliner, or when the Soviets shot down a Korean airliner carrying a US Congressman? I know the days are long gone from when Teddy Roosevelt said, "Perdicaris alive or Raisuli dead," But like Britain found out to its discomfort after the Boer War, we simply do not have the ability to impose our will on every other nation on the planet.

I know and totally accept candidly that today in the entire world, the US is the only power that can literally sink the entire PLAN and down the entire PLAF in matter of weeks; yet it gets forced by the PRC into geo-political silence and submission. This is the bitter truth of today.

Just what would accomplishing the destruction of the PLAN and/orPLAF accomplish? The US economy would be wrecked, along with the world's economy, for one thing. For another thing, who can be sure that the Chinese government, with their backs against the wall like Bashir al-Assad right now, would not fire off their nukes? Who would guarantee they would not, if we destroyed their air force and navy? And were we even to suggest that this should be done, the USA would lose almost every ally and friend we have in the world, for exposing the world to the risk of nuclear war. In the end, what would this sort of action gain for anyone involved? The satisfaction of having taught somebody a lesson? I think what it would gain is making the USA a stench in the nostrils of every nation on the globe.

Remember, during the Vietnam War, US planes bombing Haiphong harbor had to be sure to avoid damaging the vessels of our allies, the British (those with who we have that "Special Relationship") and Canada. The bonds of friendship are not nearly as unbreakable as one might think. And yes, that may well be a bitter truth, but it is better to accept it than to ignore it.

This is the US - comparatively, India is way over the horizon.

For sure this is the case with the average American who is concerned with how many shoes or potatoes they can buy for a kopek, but it is not true for our leaders, even the foreign affairs-incopentent Bush, who pursued naval ties with India. Your assertion doesn't match with the facts of 1962, Nehru, and JFK that we already discussed.

In my personal conversations, I often respond to people who make fun of my love for Bollywood movies by berating them as silly, ignorant jethro clampetts for not knowing that the biggest film star in the world was detained and shaken down by "sophisticated" TSA folks in the airport -- when he had come to the USA to promote My Name Is Khan, of all things. (I saw SRK interviewed by Fareed Zakaria afterwards -- I am amazed at how gracious he was about that whole incident.) It is true that a population who thinks we beat the Germans in WW2 single-handedly don't know much about India, but you can be sure our leaders know what's what, because their actions tell the story.

(We know that we need Rajinikanth on our side! -- Mind it!)

The reason (as per me) for this invasion is manifold - first, to test Indian waters after all the talk about what a strong RM (Def Minister) India has. Next, to show the South Asian countries not to rely on India and the US as far as the South China Sea dispute is concerned. Finally, to show that the only blue sea navy here is spineless and not even as ascertaining as smaller Philippine, Vietnamese, Indonesian and Japanese navies. This will force these South China Sea bordering nations redraw their assessment on India's capacity to stand by them in time of need. It will also send a strong signal to land-based martial elements in Afghanistan that PRC and not India has to be the mainstay there post 2014 when US and NATO say "Bye-Bye" to them. After all, it just took a bunch (company) of 50 - and now, by some reports, 20 PLA to stifle the entire wannabe Super Power. Land grabbing is just secondary - prime objective is to make a laughing stock of India post the 50th anniversary year of the Great Kick in Indian Hiney of 1962. And PRC has succeeded.

This is a perceptive analysis and makes a great deal of sense, given the political capital the Chinese have lost in the recent goings on re: North Korea. They have not exactly endeared themselves to South Asia over this North Korean thing, nor over the business between them and Japan over that rock.

Thanks for pointing this out, a very good point.

My guess ? They will withdraw in time for the new Premier to arrive in India to once again get India's commitment on Tibet and One China and talk of how peaceful relations exist between PRC and India - a lesson to be learnt by other (SCS) neighbors egged on by external forces (read the US). May be later a few million $$$ will be transferred into numbered accounts of certain elements of GOI for the "good boy/ girl" behavior. And the same elements will chirp how Gandhian way of non-violence and dialog solved the so-called crisis that could have been blown into a full-fledged war.

regs
A.

Again, a good thought. We shall see what develops on this point with interest.

One secondary point: Who can blame nations for a one China approach? It is the realistic way -- after all, we already talked about that glorified dacoit Chiang and his successors are no different, although they squabble over lesser things and pilfer much smaller pockets these days. Taiwan is the current "sick man" of international politics, and what might happen to their intellectual capital when China inevitably gobbles them up is my concern.

[essdee1972]

The trouble with a crazy half-cocked dictatorship is just what Timmy says, with their backs to the wall, you can be sure they'll try out a Hitlerite Gotterdammerung. Old Adolf didn't have nukes, but the Chinese do. They are more Gotterdammerung capable than anyone else in history, even the Soviet dictatorship.

Probably that's what will keep India (and the US) silent, even if the government changes, etc. We do have the power to knock down a couple of those huge dams with conventional tipped missiles, but the next moment, we just might see a shipment of U235 coming our way!

Timmy, sorry to say, but forget Kennedy's contribution in 1962, we are not even aware of FDR and Truman's contribution to the dismantling of the British Empire! And we are not even aware (or don't care) that it was Bush's pressure on Musharraf which led to the Pakistanis not escalating Kargil.

While on the use of airforce in 1962, we had (for then) medium range bombers and fighters. We could have bombed the PLA out of the country (our country). What it would have done is to give the Chinese a bloody nose, and a loss of face. With a face-obsessed culture like theirs, it was very likely that they would have gone into a shell. It would have been equally likely that they would have actually invaded India, but then the US would have to come in, in force. Might have been better, notwithstanding the massive casualties which would have followed. I would (personally) prefer that we kowtow to US rather than China (even though "kowtow" is a Chinese origin word)!!