If you could arm the Indian Army...

[Skyman]

What about the 7.62 Tok?

[timmy]

I have a number of points I'd like to make regarding these issues, but only have time for one: The US Krag rifle. The problem with the Krag was not its ballistic performance at all. All of the military cartridges used were superseded in ballistic performance when the Germans introduced spitzer bullets, anyway. The problems with the Krag were:

1. The magazine. Just like the British found out in the Boer War when they faced Mauser-armed Boers with their Lee pattern rifles, the Americans found out that the Spanish, armed with Mausers, had a distinct advantage with their clip-loading system, compared to the loose-ammo fed Krags. The British forged a charging clip bridge to their Lees, but the Krag was not amenable to this modification.

2. The problem with the Krag's action weakness was not due to the cartridge not being powerful enough. Norwegian and Danish Krags worked fine with a more powerful round than the .30-40 used in US Krags. The problem with Krags was that the heat treat was not proper. This was not an exact science like it is nowadays. as arsenal personnel would gauge the temperature of parts by eye, which depended on the lighting available and the individual's condition at the time. Krags exhibited the same problem as the first single heat treated M1903 Springfields: They were too brittle, and they cracked. This wasn't a problem with the cartridge, as I said, nor the rifle design: it was a manufacturing process problem that wasnt corrected until the Spingfields had been made for awhile, as well.

3. The problem with the .30-40 Krag cartridge wasn't its power, it was its rim. Rimmed cartridges usually don't feed well through bolt action and automatic weapons (unless you have a Mosin-Nagant). Not only did the Americans realize this and switch to a rimless round, but so did the British with the P14. But WW1 intervened and the British made do with the 303, and the Russians/Soviets made do with the 7.62x54r. But it is clear that rimless cartridges were the way to go.

Based on these points, i reject the assertion that there was anything inherently wrong with the Krag rifle or cartridge. The problem was in manufacture of the rifle and that rimmed cartridges became a technological chamber pot: they could be used, but there were better solutions to the problem.

When I get home tonight, I will address the fabled 6.8mm from Camelot, the handgun knockdown power issue, the M16/223 issue, etc.

[gladiatorgarg]

so gentle men any consensus on the hardware???we r eagerly waiting...

[Skyman]

We wait, popcorn in hand for Timmy!

Speaking of hardware, what happened to the XM-8 and FN Scar, which did well in the tests? Not to mention the HK 416.

[Grumpy]

Yeah - don`t use the Springfield M1892 IN 30-40 Krag ..... !
Timmy, you can reject any assertion that there was anything inherently wrong with the Krag rifle or cartridge as much as you like - but first try reading what I said because I never said that there was anything `wrong` as such with either. My understanding is that the metallurgical problems - ie the locking lug cracking - only became a problem after the introduction of the higher pressure/ higher velocity ( 2200 fps instead of 2000 fps ) cartridge developed to try and compete with the Mauser 7x57. Interestingly the Danish and Norwegian Krag Jorgensens had two lugs ... and the Norwegian was chambered for the rimless 6.5x55.
The Krag Jorgensen was an interesting rifle ..... and very accurate in 6.5x55.
There was nothing wrong with the Krag Jorgensen rifle .... as long as the Norwegians built them. There was nothing wrong with the 30-40 cartridge ...... apart from, possibly, the rim.
The British switched to a rimless round in the P14 ? That`s an interesting statement - the British didn`t switch to a rimless round ...... they didn`t switch to a rimless round until the 1950s. You`re thinking of the .276 ( ANOTHER .280/7mm !!! ) in the P13. Rejected because of bad timing ( ie, WWI ) The P14 was the same rifle chambered for the .303 .....and the P17 the same but chambered for the 30-06. The British didn`t `make do` with the .303 - they actively decided to retain it and the SMLE after the combination proved so successful and reliable in WWII. The rimmed .303 worked well in the machine guns chambered for it as well..... even if the British did have to go to the Czechs to design a decent light machine gun.
Camelot ? Camelot is about 10 miles from here ( as the crow flies. )

[Skyman]

even if the British did have to go to the Czechs to design a decent light machine gun.

Do you means the Vickers MG?

[Grumpy]

Er ..... no.
The Vickers, as we all know, was designed by an Indian ...... or Hyderabad is in England ...... or something not at all like that.
Czech = ZB vz 26. British = BREN.
BR = Brno. EN = Enfield.
You`re an Indian gun nut and don`t know that ? As far as I know, IOF is still producing Bren guns.
Interestingly, the Bren/ZB vz 26 was used by both the Allies and the Germans in WWII. Can anyone think of another small arm used by both ?

[Skyman]

UHH...thought of the Vickers first.The British once fired a million rounds in a day out of one of them.The Bren i understand, was an effective,accurate and reliable weapon.

It is news to me both sides used the Bren.As for the other small arm, do drop a hint.Where it was used or what kind - Rifle, submachine gun...?

[Grumpy]

There are more than one other actually ..... but for the first:
A hint ? "Where it was used or what kind - Rifle, submachine gun...?"
Neither of those.

[Skyman]

MG42's?

[Grumpy]

Not a machine gun of any description.
Whilst the ZB vz 26`s were built in Czechoslovakia and chambered for the 8x57 and the Bren was built in the UK and chambered for the .303, the gun that I`m now thinking of was used by by allied and German troops in the same specification ..... and built in the same factory.

[Vikram]

Not a machine gun of any description.
Whilst the ZB vz 26`s were built in Czechoslovakia and chambered for the 8x57 and the Bren was built in the UK and chambered for the .303, the gun that I`m now thinking of was used by by allied and German troops in the same specification ..... and built in the same factory.

Browning Hi-Power 9X19 pistols built in FN-Herstal.


Best-
Vikram

[Grumpy]

You flash git Vickers !

[Grumpy]

Made any machine guns today ?

[Vikram]

Made any machine guns today ?

I wish.

Played with the Brens a lot during the NCC days. They are/were such a robustly and well designed equipment.


Best-
Vikram