Lever Action or Double Rifle?

[Grumpy]

But why not get a 38 Sp in the first place ?
One might use .38 Sp in a .357mag for plinking but it`s primary use is as a.357 mag. I sometimes use .44 Sp ammo in my .44 mag rifle ..... but only sometimes and for a specific purpose.
Providing a .357 mag has a 6" barrel it`s no problem to shoot or to get off a rapid follow-up shot. The .357 mag snubbies are evil although it`s the blast rather than the recoil that`s so unpleasant. The short barrelled .44 mags are nasty any way you consider them.
Dunno how the 32 ACP can be unpleasant to shoot.......It can bark a bit ( a very little `bit` ) in a very short barrel but is a really wussy calibre.
Engaging in debate/conversation can be confrontational and - by definition - argumentative. So what ? Everyone is entitled to an opinion and no-one is being rude or unpleasant.

[Skyman]

Sweet.Now, can you bequeath your paul to me? Which year and model? The only Gibson solid bodies i would buy are the 50's and 60's pauls and the korina flying V.Semi-Hollows...now that's a different story.

The chambered pauls may be easier to play but detract from the paul tone and sustain IMO.

Back to topic.I believe the whole .357 mag discussion was exclusive of the type of gun being fired.I don't know too well the kind of .357 mag revolvers available here, but relatively new Rugers seem to be offered...? Colt's and S&W's command a hefty premium over Rugers.

[Grumpy]

The ability to handle recoil is a subjective matter and varies greatly with the individual. I`ve known 6`2" 18 stone men who find using a 12-bore very unpleasant so shoot very light loads from a 20-bore. Walter Bell detested recoil which is why he used a 6.5x54 for preference only transferring to a 7x57 because of reliability problems with the Mannlicher loads - he wasn`t the only one to experience that problem as George Gibbs was renowned ( notorious perhaps ) for loading the 6.5x54 decidedly hot so that case fracture was not infrequent. I`m not a recoil junkie but my tolerance of recoil is pretty good ...... I can`t shoot a .303 SMLE without getting hurt however - the butt smacks me on the collar bone every time due to the shape of the stock. Oversize grips can `tame` handgun recoil remarkably - especially the rubber type. The amount of recoil is the same but becomes far more controllable .... but not if you have small hands perhaps.

[Skyman]

Don't you Brits usually wear a jacket when you shoot long guns? A recoil pad should help...

[Grumpy]

You must be loaded if you can afford a `50s Les Paul - even the first models, the `52s are making $15k and they`re poor guitars. Minimum money for a `58, `59 or `60 `burst is around $250k. A `57-`60 Custom or goldtop is c. $50k. The `61 onward Les Pauls are SG shape. The Les Paul proper was reintroduced in `68 with the goldtop Deluxe fitted with the small humbuckers. The Standard and Custom were re-introduced later the same year. `69-`77 were the really bad years with the pancake body. We have four Les Pauls - an ebony `59 re-issue Custom, a Standard in honeyburst, a goldtop with P90s and a Bigsby and a goldtop with burstbuckers. All are recent.

[Skyman]

Lol....it is wayyyy cheaper to have a custom lp made than buy one of the old beauties.No, i would rather pick up a host of guitars - strats, teles, 70's Jacksons, semi-hollows...rather than one paul.I amn't loaded at all.In fact, i would pick up a V or a semi hollow rather than a paul.Vintage Pauls can be replicated with the right wood,construction and pickups.

Right now, i'm looking at one of those Agile LP's.As for your pauls, i hope pictures can be put up/sent if you please.A goldtop with P90's and a bigsby is a rare sight.Enjoy them sir, many only dream of them.How is the 59 reissue? The ebony should really cut through.

[miroflex]

Since we have strayed all over this topic, let me reiterate. In a home defense situation, I'd pick the .22 Hornet for several reasons. The bullet is constructed to expand violently on something the size of a rabbit or a bit larger. It is unlikely to penetrate a human body, but will certainly break human long bones, and make a nasty and very painful wound. Without the danger of wounding others behind your target. Out at 200 yards or better, deliberate shots, it's still accurate and effective.

Footpounds of energy do not translate into lethality, the hit and bullet performance do. If they did, why are there so many people trying to come up with another formula, for "killing power", knockdown (?) power, or whatever?.

For an all-around rifle, suitable for everything when you can only have one (perish the thought), I'd try to get my hands on the 7x57 or similar before Grumpy snags it.

I'm trying to locate a 7x57 mm or 6.5x57 mm that is reasonably priced and in good condition.

And once more, the .315 IOF Lee-Enfield will do as well as any in this situation, provided you load the magazine correctly. Cheers.

I am sticking to the .315 for now.

Regards.

[winnie_the_pooh]

But why not get a 38 Sp in the first place ?One might use .38 Sp in a .357mag for plinking but it`s primary use is as a.357 mag.

Getting a .38 spl revolver entered on a license is very difficult.On the other hand,as long as you have the money to buy one,there are no such issues with a .357 mag.Once you buy a .357 mag,you realize that finding ammo is difficult.You can get .38 spl ammo.So .357 mag and .38 spl ammo makes for a winning combination in India.

AND FOR THE CHAP WHO AFTER READING THIS, PLANS TO PM ME FOR DETAILS,I AM NOT A DEALER AND YOU ARE NOT GETTING ANY 'DETAILS' FROM ME

[Skyman]

WTP, can a .357 mag be endorsed as .357 mag/38 spl because it shoots both?

[Grumpy]

It`s news to me that a .22 Hornet bullet `expands violently on something the size of a rabbit or a bit larger`. I`ve shot plenty of rabbits with a .22 Hornet and never had a bullet expand `violently` - or even expand much at all. The same applies to Foxes.
Meat damage is usually excessive due to excessive bruising .... but I`ve never found that to be a problem as I don`t like rabbit meat anyway. An exception might the 40 gr Hornady V-MAX bullet in .22 Hornet because if that is anything like the 17 gr .17 HMR V-MAX then `violent` expansion might be a fair description ..... `explosive` could be more accurate in fact. Very effective but the frangible bullet ruins the meat. The 20 gr XTP is better because it holds together ..... and definitely better for foxes as it`s penetration is superior and it imparts more energy. I don`t know because I`ve never used a V-MAX in .22 Hornet. Certain Innuit use the .22 Hornet on seals using head shots only - when rapid expansion is the last thing required.

[TwoRivers]

Don't know what brand of .22 Hornet ammunition you are using, but with very few exceptions American .22 caliber rifle bullets are designed with light jackets to expand rapidly on small varmint. What do you suppose causes bruising of the meat?

While our Inupiak people used the .22 Hornet for a long time as their preferred cartridge, for seal, caribou, and polar bear, it certainly wasn't designed with that hunting in mind, but mainly for woodchuck. Without consideration for meat or pelt.
Head shots for seals on the ice, because if not killed instantly they are down the hole, and they don't float.

[Grumpy]

What causes the bruising is shock. Even a big buck weighs no more than 4 lbs so they don`t take much killing. 12 ft lb max air rifles are effective rabbit killers so 600 ft lbs plus tends to make it`s mark as the bullet passes through. Woodchucks are somewhat heavier built than rabbits ( and more than twice the weight ) so the bullets might be more inclined to expand on those. The .22 Hornet ammo I`ve used is Winchester, Remington ( both of which are American by the way ) and Prvi Partizan - and none of them have ever shown `violent` expansion. Let`s be honest, the .22 Hornet doesn`t do anything violently.
It would be an absolute waste of time shooting a seal in the body with a .22 Hornet because the bullet wouldn`t even penetrate the blubber.....especially not if it expanded violently. The head shot is the only option. Just as well that it`s necessary anyway.

[miroflex]

Since you stated that the use would be for home defense, my recommendation would be nothing in that caliber unless you plan to defend against thin skinned dangerous game.
When used inside the home, it is going to have a really nasty effect on both the user and whatever it is going to be used against. Eardrum Rupture is something to consider. It will also completely penetrate a man sized target putting people on the other side (or in other rooms) in danger. This cartridge, no matter what rifle it is used in, is serious overkill for home defense.

All the issues you read about, on US websites, about wall penetration don't necessarily apply to India. Please remember that the poured concrete walls generally found in Indian houses are significantly different from US stick built houses. A soft nose bullet, might not penetrate the wall but I wouldn't want to take a chance of standing on the other side of it. Collateral damage to others could be an issue but it is not as great as it would be in the US. If used indoors, with concrete walls, you have another issue to worry about. If the bullet hits the wall at a shallow angle, you could have a ricochet in the room which could now put you and family members at risk.

For home defense, a shotgun would serve your purposes quite a bit better than a rifle, especially one that only ammunition of uncertain vintage and quality is available for.

I have been mulling over your advice, XL_Target, and that of other members who have opined in favour of the shotgun rather than the rifle as a weapon suitable for home defence.

My and my wife's applications for issue of arms licences have now reached the final stage of a long and complex process and are about to be placed before the Collector and District Magistrate, Allahabad. I have met him and requested that the licences be issued expeditiously. My application is for issue of a licence for a rifle. Since I already have a licence for a rifle and a revolver, it is not possible for me to now acquire a licence for a shotgun.

A possible alternative has emerged now. I have just come to know of a .450/400 rifle and 12 bore shotgun double barrel hammerless combination weapon for sale. I wonder whether this will provide me with the best of both the worlds. Or is it likely to be a clumsy and complicated apparatus that will prove slow to bring into action in a situation where quick reactions are necessary and every shot counts.

I have no experience of combination guns and would like to hear from those who do. Should I prefer the combination gun over the .405 double rifle provided I can acquire the former and get it endorsed on my licence?

Regards.

[TwoRivers]

Miroflex: There is nothing complicated or clumsy about a SxS, or O/U for that matter, shotgun/rifle combination. For your previously stated purpose of home defense, it would be the best of both worlds, and possibly give you double the cartridge quota.
Better than a .405 SxS, in my opinion. Though with 25% heavier recoil. While the .450/.400 3" N.E. is again in production, finding it in India may be another matter.

[Grumpy]

I absolutely agree with TwoRivers; Double guns - shotguns, double rifles or combination guns - have got to be fast handling because that`s what they are intended for .... guns that will come to the shoulder and point QUICKLY.
Whilst I`m not altogether a fan of the combination/Cape gun concept I admit that`s a personal bias and have to concur that this might well be `the best of both worlds` ...... There`s no doubting that both the .450/400 NE and 12-bore are decidedly authoritative ...... and if a buffalo stampedes through the front door into your living room you have just the calibre to deal with it ! There must be .450/400 NE ammo in India because I know someone who has a double rifle in the calibre .... with ammo I believe. It`s a fine calibre ..... somewhat excessive maybe for home defence weapon ( athough I largely agree with the maxim `There`s no such thing as too much gun` ) but by heck anyone who sees you shooting that thing is going to let their friends know that you have a shoulder cannon.