Indian Edged Weapons in the Prince of Wales Museum

[Moin.]

Request Mods to look into Brihaji's suggestion. I third.

I fourth
TC

Thank you Tcda.

Regards
Moin.

[Moin.]

moin....really thanks for sharing this wonderful pics....thanks

Thank you Ganesh. Glad you liked the post.

Regards
Moin.

[Moin.]

Moin,

A job well done, a catalog of the Edged Weapons of the Prince of Wales Museum is something I have been waiting on

GN Pant, never got around to doing it , but you have done a splendid job of getting all the images together.

Keep up the good work.

Regards,
Pistolero

Thanks Pistolero. After a certain Mr.Pant made friends with Lord Egerton of Tatton and a certain Mr.Rawson if you know what I mean. They have been the guiding force.

Regards
Moin.

[Moin.]

Moin

amazing pictures and what a find. great to know that Indian museums have such historic artifacts. Amazingly and thankfully they are still in India

best

Grewalji I'm sure it's a very small fraction of what should have been. God knows how much has been plundered since thousands of years and how little we value whats left.

Regards
Moin.

[tirpassion]

> If I may humbly suggest to our MODS - Both Moin & Slingshot deserve to be honored with the "Poster of the Month" award.
> Moin for his contribution on "Indian Edged Weapons" & Slingshot for his contribution on "Birds in our Backyards". Two remarkable & painstaking posts that snowballed with responses from virtually every IFGian.
Briha

One more to say YESSSS!!!!

best regards
tirpassion

[Katana]

@ Moin: It's still taking me some time for all this to sink into my brain. Too much to digest at one go. I think the best way is for me to go to Bombay and take a day or two from your time, go to the museum and study everything closely. Some amazing stuff!

Meanwhile, my Una/ kilij hybrid blade is almost ready! Have problems posting pics.

@AGN: Absolutely agree with you about the Shri Yantra and the Shiv Yantra. Not something to mess around with. Slightly OT, but same applies to the Kali Yantra.

[airgun_novice]

[SNIP]
> My Parsee Priest friend & I used to have several discussions on the similarity between Rig Veda & Zend Avesta (both supposedly of Aryan Origin) He even presented me with a copy of Zend Avesta with English translation!
Briha

What I write now is absolutely OT wrt swords and shields - but since this was brought up...

Ahem Brihji, Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT) has since been debunked and proven false - another one from British quiver of "Divide and Rule".

First to pin-point the intellectual forgery out was Swami Vivekanand who challenged it on the logic that there is no mention of an important event like the invasion when the Victors could have waxed eloquently. There are lots of mention in the Vedic literature and also Ramayan-Mahabharat of various transitions, migrations, new settlements, old dynasty breakups etc. So why not the so-called Crowning Glory of the Aryans ? So it can be concluded that based on traces of Indian culture world-wide - if at all, Aryans went OUT of India rather than came in.

Even Lokmanya Tilak is said to have revised his earlier opinion (as in Orion and The Arctic Home in the Vedas) in a chat with his colleague N. C. Kelkar. Alas - the Lokmanya did not live long after - 6 yr in Mandalay and 18 mth at Yeravda immediately after took its toll. If he had lived a bit longer, may be we would have known what he realized.

In recent times, Dr. Kak, Dr. Koenraad Elst (sp ?) and Dr. David Frawley etc. have proven that AIT is figment of British imagination. Incidentally, the word "Dravid" is itself non-Tamil in origin and (as per me) the story gets impetus from the "Druids" in the Isles who were pushed by the Saxons, Romans and the Normans down South into what is now Wales. Welch folks are by and large of darker complexion and hair as compared to the Nordics and worshiped Forces of Nature.

Satellite, genetic and archaeological evidences till recent times have further proven that "pre-Aryan Dravids" of Harappa & Mohenjo Daro have similar genetics as compared with people from both sides of the Punjab today. Plus the altars and town layouts etc. as viewed from satellite imagery are also definitely Vedic - hence if the Aryans composed the Vedas later, well, the Dravidians could not have built their culture alike and before the invasion - unless they time-traveled.

However, you got Indo-Parsi relationship right. Zarathustra (believed to be born in Western Kashmir or Eastern Afghanistan) is credited to have ended the enmity between the Daevas and the Ahuras. Now what we (from the western thought or tutelage) call as Persian Civilization also originates from Assyrian (or as is pronounced "Assuri") civilization. Quite a few names there can be traced and linked to certain prominent Asur kings from India's own legends or are Sanskrit-based.

We often mix up, rather wrongly, Asur/ Rakshas/ Dasyu/ Daitya/ Danav/ etc. with each other and thus help history disappear into the mists of mythology and bed-time stories.

Ahhh!!!

[Moin.]

@ Moin: It's still taking me some time for all this to sink into my brain. Too much to digest at one go. I think the best way is for me to go to Bombay and take a day or two from your time, go to the museum and study everything closely. Some amazing stuff!

Meanwhile, my Una/ kilij hybrid blade is almost ready! Have problems posting pics.

@AGN: Absolutely agree with you about the Shri Yantra and the Shiv Yantra. Not something to mess around with. Slightly OT, but same applies to the Kali Yantra.

Absolutely.Would love to play host. I do not know anybody else who umderstands Indian Edged weapons like hou do. Would be a great oppurtunity for all of us to learn. YOU are more than welcome anytime.Amazing stuff absolutely. I was fascinated more with the damascus blades more than the ornamental hilts. Something so mystical about these Wootz Blades. Would love to see how the Kilij has turned out. Email me the pics and Ill post them for you.

Regards
Moin.

[Moin.]

> If I may humbly suggest to our MODS - Both Moin & Slingshot deserve to be honored with the "Poster of the Month" award.
> Moin for his contribution on "Indian Edged Weapons" & Slingshot for his contribution on "Birds in our Backyards". Two remarkable & painstaking posts that snowballed with responses from virtually every IFGian.
Briha

One more to say YESSSS!!!!

best regards
tirpassion

Thank you so much TirDa. Merci Beaucoup...

[Moin.]

[SNIP]
> My Parsee Priest friend & I used to have several discussions on the similarity between Rig Veda & Zend Avesta (both supposedly of Aryan Origin) He even presented me with a copy of Zend Avesta with English translation!
Briha

What I write now is absolutely OT wrt swords and shields - but since this was brought up...

Ahem Brihji, Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT) has since been debunked and proven false - another one from British quiver of "Divide and Rule".

First to pin-point the intellectual forgery out was Swami Vivekanand who challenged it on the logic that there is no mention of an important event like the invasion when the Victors could have waxed eloquently. There are lots of mention in the Vedic literature and also Ramayan-Mahabharat of various transitions, migrations, new settlements, old dynasty breakups etc. So why not the so-called Crowning Glory of the Aryans ? So it can be concluded that based on traces of Indian culture world-wide - if at all, Aryans went OUT of India rather than came in.

Even Lokmanya Tilak is said to have revised his earlier opinion (as in Orion and The Arctic Home in the Vedas) in a chat with his colleague N. C. Kelkar. Alas - the Lokmanya did not live long after - 6 yr in Mandalay and 18 mth at Yeravda immediately after took its toll. If he had lived a bit longer, may be we would have known what he realized.

In recent times, Dr. Kak, Dr. Koenraad Elst (sp ?) and Dr. David Frawley etc. have proven that AIT is figment of British imagination. Incidentally, the word "Dravid" is itself non-Tamil in origin and (as per me) the story gets impetus from the "Druids" in the Isles who were pushed by the Saxons, Romans and the Normans down South into what is now Wales. Welch folks are by and large of darker complexion and hair as compared to the Nordics and worshiped Forces of Nature.

Satellite, genetic and archaeological evidences till recent times have further proven that "pre-Aryan Dravids" of Harappa & Mohenjo Daro have similar genetics as compared with people from both sides of the Punjab today. Plus the altars and town layouts etc. as viewed from satellite imagery are also definitely Vedic - hence if the Aryans composed the Vedas later, well, the Dravidians could not have built their culture alike and before the invasion - unless they time-traveled.

However, you got Indo-Parsi relationship right. Zarathustra (believed to be born in Western Kashmir or Eastern Afghanistan) is credited to have ended the enmity between the Daevas and the Ahuras. Now what we (from the western thought or tutelage) call as Persian Civilization also originates from Assyrian (or as is pronounced "Assuri") civilization. Quite a few names there can be traced and linked to certain prominent Asur kings from India's own legends or are Sanskrit-based.

We often mix up, rather wrongly, Asur/ Rakshas/ Dasyu/ Daitya/ Danav/ etc. with each other and thus help history disappear into the mists of mythology and bed-time stories.

Ahhh!!!

BHAU absolutely fascinating Theory. Please do share any reading material you may have on this.

Thanks
Moin.

[airgun_novice]

BHAU absolutely fascinating Theory. Please do share any reading material you may have on this.

Thanks
Moin.

Dear Moin, Too many links floating on the topic these days. Though Koenraad Elst and David Frawley are both Indologists and Sinologists (or "Easternologists" ), Dr. Kak and N. Rajaraman are US-based Indian scientists (mathematicians etc. ) and scholars working on Indus seals and scripts. While in US I was fortunate enough to exchange a few notes with some of these illuminaries on this topic. Tilak's change of views were noted down by N.C. Kelkar.
regs
A.

[brihacharan]

[SNIP]
> My Parsee Priest friend & I used to have several discussions on the similarity between Rig Veda & Zend Avesta (both supposedly of Aryan Origin) He even presented me with a copy of Zend Avesta with English translation!
Briha

What I write now is absolutely OT wrt swords and shields - but since this was brought up...

Ahem Brihji, Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT) has since been debunked and proven false - another one from British quiver of "Divide and Rule".

- if at all, Aryans went OUT of India rather than came in.

Even Lokmanya Tilak is said to have revised his earlier opinion (as in Orion and The Arctic Home in the Vedas) in a chat with his colleague N. C. Kelkar. Alas - the Lokmanya did not live long after - 6 yr in Mandalay and 18 mth at Yeravda immediately after took its toll. If he had lived a bit longer, may be we would have known what he realized.

In recent times, Dr. Kak, Dr. Koenraad Elst (sp ?) and Dr. David Frawley etc. have proven that AIT is figment of British imagination. Incidentally, the word "Dravid" is itself non-Tamil in origin and (as per me) the story gets impetus from the "Druids" in the Isles who were pushed by the Saxons, Romans and the Normans down South into what is now Wales. Welch folks are by and large of darker complexion and hair as compared to the Nordics and worshiped Forces of Nature.

Satellite, genetic and archaeological evidences till recent times have further proven that "pre-Aryan Dravids" of Harappa & Mohenjo Daro have similar genetics as compared with people from both sides of the Punjab today. Plus the altars and town layouts etc. as viewed from satellite imagery are also definitely Vedic - hence if the Aryans composed the Vedas later, well, the Dravidians could not have built their culture alike and before the invasion - unless they time-traveled.

However, you got Indo-Parsi relationship right. Zarathustra (believed to be born in Western Kashmir or Eastern Afghanistan) is credited to have ended the enmity between the Daevas and the Ahuras. Now what we (from the western thought or tutelage) call as Persian Civilization also originates from Assyrian (or as is pronounced "Assuri") civilization. Quite a few names there can be traced and linked to certain prominent Asur kings from India's own legends or are Sanskrit-based.

> The subject of Social Anthropology has always fascinated me - From the above one can surmise that Trans-Migration of people across continents have given rise to a whole lot of 'theories' about culture / religious practices / language etc.

> During a casual chat with a South Indian Pandit long time ago - he told me that the German Name "Hayden" has its roots in the early Indian Shepherd community who were referred to as 'Heda' - like the Banjaras from Rajasthan who migrated to Europe (Romania) and came to be known as Romanis / Gypsies.

> The modern Violin evolved out of the "Ravanastra" a 3 string instrument taken by these Gypsies to Europe - The Romani language spoken by the Gypsies have words like Namak for Salt, Aab for Water & Khas Divas for Festivals & many more!

> The Welsh greeting "Yaki Da" sounds like "Enna Da" in Tamil meaning How are You?
> Oh! One can go on & on and Who knows where the Twain will Meet
> Me thinks that during the next Camp Fire session by the CMG (Churi-Mochi-Gang) apart from Guns & Blades we should discuss & debate this exotic & exciting topic.
Cheers
Briha

[airgun_novice]

Romanis/ Gypsies have different "origin" than what the SI Pandit told you, Sir. Ravanastra- that's a new one - Ravan was the Master of Rudra-Veena on which he composed and played the mighty Shiv Tandav Stotram. But I must restrain myself - as you said let us leave it for our camp fire sessions. BTW, When Brihji ? WHEN ? Poor bro Moin has given up on the Kelwe dreams and decided to part company with us. We might as well wait for him to get out of his "warranty" period.

Katanaji - I too am curious about the double-headed horse as about the other hilt carvings. Please enlighten.

[brihacharan]

[quote="airgun_novice"]Romanis/ Gypsies have different "origin" than what the SI Pandit told you, Sir. Ravanastra- that's a new one - Ravan was the Master of Rudra-Veena on which he composed and played the mighty Shiv Tandav Stotram. But I must restrain myself - as you said let us leave it for our camp fire sessions. BTW, When Brihji ? WHEN ? Poor bro Moin has given up on the Kelwe dreams and decided to part company with us.

AGN wrote....
We might as well wait for him (Moin) to get out of his "warranty" period.

> Warranty Periods hold good if there is a 'manufacturing defect'
> Post that he should opt for a AMC (Annual Maintenance Contract)
> Wonder if his passion for blades will go into the back-burner at-least initially
Briha

[marthandan]

moin...what do i say...i have been looking through this thread every day since you posted (smiley paying obeisance)

my favorites are, 1. the arrow with a mechanical broadhead, 2. Akbar's shield and 3. the fourth axe from top in the first picture.

one Q - the all steel straight sword in page 2 is from an older era...isn't it? looks similar to south indian swords of the pandya / chola era.