Lever Action or Double Rifle?

[miroflex]

Is this thread just an academic exercise on the part of the OP or would it lead to something fruitful???

I have benefitted considerably from the debate. As Francis Bacon sagely observed, "Conference maketh a ready man."

I have been readying myself for the purchase decision to be taken as soon as the licences come through.

Regards.

[miroflex]

Miroflex, if you already have a .315 on your license, you can reload the .280 ross brass, provided thats on your license also.

Neither the materials (cases, primers, powder and bullets) nor the equipment (press, dies etc.) are at hand.

Regards.

[miroflex]

In the indian scenario... Fanciful at best.
The OP wants imported stuff at good rates.
If rates are good, either the rifle is worn out or ammo is very expensive/unavailable.
If ammo is available/cheap, rifle chambered for the particular calibre will be expensive.But, its good to want to have your cake and eat it too!

You are partly correct, AB.

Nevertheless, I have come across some good rifles at affordable prices, even though these prices may be six times the international prices of comparable brand new rifles.

Regards.

[Skyman]

I am confused.Is the .22 Hornet powerful enough or not? Grumpy and 2Rivers say contradicting things.

[Grumpy]

No need to be confused.
The .22 Hornet is the least powerful centrefire rifle calibre produced and totally unsuitable for any defensive role. It`s role is for the control of rabbits, squirrels, foxes and very small deer only - where allowed ( it`s not allowed for any form of deer hunting in the UK because it isn`t powerful enough. ) It`s a delightful little calibre but you`ld be an absolute idiot to trust your life to it.

[Safarigent]

Gosh, we need more people like you on this forum!

[Skyman]

Why thank you AB.It's nice to be appreciated.

Grumpy, among the .22's, what's the best bet for our country for frail people? The .22 LR?

[Grumpy]

The .22 lr has only a fraction of the ME of the .22 Hornet so would be an even worse choice. The .22 that produces the greatest velocity/ME is the .22-250 but even it would be a poor choice. The only .22 worth considering would be the .223 ( 5.56 NATO ) but even then ONLY with a 75-80 gr bullet .... which requires a 1:7 rate of twist to stabilise it. Only with a 75-80 gr bullet and only because 75 and 80 gr bullets are available for the .223. The trouble with centrefire .22s is that they are very poor manstoppers - with FMJ bullets they tend to shoot straight through an assailant leaving a small wound channel OR they fragment without penetration. With NATO and other nations/groups of nations committed to the 5.56x45 it`s going to be around for a long while to come. The US military and government has acknowledged the failings of the 5.56x45 due to it being such a poor performer in Iraq and Afghanistan but the 6.8 SPC developed to replace it yet allow the retention of the M16 with a replacement upper ( including barrel ) has now been ignored for years which effectively means that it is not going to replace the .223 ( 5.56x45. ) There`s no political will to change ..... and there are rumours of billions of rounds of 5.56x45 ammo being stored by/for the US military. The 5.56x45 should never have been adopted in the first place but procurement is made by ministers and civil servants who have no actual knowledge or experience of combat and combat conditions and by desk jockey generals who have never been involved in actual combat either.
As the likelyhood, in India, of being able to obtain a rifle chambered in .223 Rem with a 1:7 twist barrel and the necessary ammo with 75-80 gr bullets is HIGHLY unlikely you can scrub any .22 from the defence role.
The next group of calibres is the 6mms - the 240"s. With the right bullet any of them would be considerably more effective than any of the .22s/5.5mms. To anyone used to the `yap` of the .223/5.56x45 or `pop` of the 7.62x39, the bark of a .243 Win would be a heck of a surprise .... and a deterrent in itself. I don`t think Vikram has ever gotten over just how loud the .243 is. Recoil is moderate from any .240" cal ..... much less than the racket they make would suggest.
Recoil from a .6mm Rem or .243 Win using a 100 gr bullet would be no more than 10 lbs - which is half that of a 30-06 shooting a 180 gr bullet.
Two Rivers is more knowledgable on ballistics than I and it would be interesting to see his opinion. I suspect he`d come down in favour of a 7mm/.280" which is, in many ways, the obvious and ideal choice ..... even for the physically weak. A `soft` loaded 7x57 or .280 Rem shooting a 120/140 gr bullet @ a little over 2,000 fps would be effective and very easy on the shoulder.

[Skyman]

The problem ( bit off topic here ) is - Here, the only calibers i trust are .357 mag and .38spl.Anything lesser, lke the .22s or the .32 acp i simply don't believe to be reliable for SD, shot placement and stats aside.I am on the fence about the .380ACP and the Tokarev.Other popular calibers like the 9mm and .45ACP are out of reach for civilians.A good .357mag revolver will cost as much as a small house or small piece of land in this country.Unless you work very hard to be able to afford one, plus the very expensive ammo for it, you are stuck with the .22's and .32 acp, which are less expensive and for which the ammo is relatively cheap.Rather, how good a shot you are will decide whether you can successfully defend yourself or not.

Back to the 6.8, i saw a segment on it a while back and it showed promise.It is as good as the ak round wrt knock down power i believe.And was more accurate.Wrt ammo stocks, an article XL posted a while ago said the Americans had to buy .223 ammo from the Israelis cause they were running out.

[Grumpy]

If you trust the .38 sp and .357 mag then you might as well trust the 9mm Para because it`s effectively the semi-auto .38 cal - although all of them are actually .35" cal - but has considerably more oomph than the .38 sp. Hottest .38 sp loads develop a little over 200 ft lbs - the .380 acp ditto. A hot 9mm Para load is something over 500 ft lbs. The better .45 ACPs about 100 ft lbs more ( low 600 ft lbs region ) and the .357 mag another 100 ft lbs again ( low 700 ft lbs. ) The .38 sp proved ineffective a long time ago and has largely been replaced by the 9mm para or, if more enlightened, the .40 S&W. The 9 mm para has had a lot of bad press over the last 20 odd years with the problem being that it is another poor man-stopper and has been replaced with the .40 S&W by many police forces and agencies. The .45 Acp is a proven man-stopper and is still used by US Special Forces and by specialist agencies within the FBI. With the right bullet the .357 mag is a fine defensive calibre ..... with the wrong bullet it`s an even higher velocity 9mm para - ie, shoots holes through people but doesn`t stop them.
All that you quote are handgun calibres and you have to remember that a handgun is a close range weapon.
I checked re your comments re the US military ammo stocks and you`re right - there is a shortage because the ammo companies can`t produce ammo fast enough at the moment. The US Govt is NOT however, buying from Israel........ not yet anyway.

[Safarigent]

This topic is for lever actions vs double rifles for home defence. (A laughable debate anywhere in the world)
Not ammo.
We are going OT here.
The main debate about the lever action vs double rifle has already taken place.
Lets have this thread locked and a new thread regarding self defence calibres in the Indian scenario opened up. With the relevant posts migrating there.

[Skyman]

Agreed, and sorry for going OT.The mods can create a thread and move the posts, or i'll start a thread if not.

[Grumpy]

It`s not my thread but, of course, I have no objection.

[winnie_the_pooh]

with the wrong bullet it`s an even higher velocity 9mm para - ie, shoots holes through people but doesn`t stop them.

Yup.

[Skyman]

If i recall, you had some good things to say about the .357 mag, when compared to other calibers...?