Fact or rumour? - FAO - Mark & Grumpy

[mundaire]

Hi am posting on behalf of Mr. Soumyadip Choudhury -

This is Soumyadip from Indiatimes. We are doing a story on a machine gun that can be built at home. Since you have both an active interest and expertise in guns, we wanted your opinion on this.

How easy will it be for someone to assemble this and how effective is the weapon?

The details about the gun are available at

http://www.flup.ws/dangerous-goods/the- ... ine-gun/1/

There's another do-it-yourself-guide on making bullets at

http://www.flup.ws/dangerous-goods/buil ... ls/#more-8

Your observations will help us in moulding the story.

Regards,
Soumyadip Choudhury

[Mark]

Soumyadip,

I will attempt here to cast some light on your question How easy will it be for someone to assemble this and how effective is the weapon?

I have never seen this particular item before, so I researched this a little on the internet.

I discovered that plans to build this were first offered in 1981, 26 years ago. In the intervening quarter century there appears to be not one working example of this, other than the prototype used to sell the builders manual.

This leads me to believe that either this item is so difficult to build that not one other person has been able to successfully create one in the last quarter century, or else those that have been built do not work as advertised, if at all.

I did a very brief google image search, and was not able to find a picture of one completed project which seems to reinforce the discrepancy between claims and actuality with this item.

In summary, the data appears to support that the inventor of this item has more in common with my fellow countryman P.T. Barnum than with a Chambal Dacoit.


To answer the article on the "Do-it-yourself-guide on making bullets", I will let the author speak for himself:

The end result looked somewhat like a bullet and went off with a bang, but it wasn’t lethal ammunition by a long shot.

and

Clearly this bullet is nothing more than a gimmick, but it was entertaining to build and fire.

However, this did remind me of a story told to me back in the 1960's by one of the US premier cannon manufacturers, of a US prisoner who built a cannon from the metal leg of his bed, powered it with match-heads, used a marble and shot a guard with it.

Which goes to show that a person with malicious intent can make a weapon out of most anything, but that is not to be confused with someone seeking an afternoons entertainment and little else.

Kindest Regards,

Mark White

[sa_ali]

that prisoner was damn genius .

[bobsled]

Hi all, I just found out you've been visiting my website ( http://www.flup.ws ) via this page. I hope you've found the DIY air rifle and bullet articles interesting.

Regarding the question "How easy will it be for someone to assemble this and how effective is the weapon?"

Personally, I have not built this air machine gun, however I have read through the instructions many times. The gun does require some metalwork skills, while most of the components can be built on a lathe with milling abilities. I would not suggest that an amateur gunsmith build this device as it must contain very large pressures (Upwards of 3000psi) as a means of propulsion. As a result, any poor workmanship may result in failure of specific components and eventually catastrophic failure.

The weapons delivers .32 ACP power. This is not considered a very powerful round however due to the high rate of fire it is a lethal weapon. Note that I do not support using these instructions for anything more than experimentation or sporting.

Regarding my home made bullet, I fired a round at a 3mm thick Aluminum sheet. It did not penetrate. The use of "sparkler powder" explains this. It burns slowly and as such does not produce adequate pressure. Recently I have been looking in to using match heads as a propellant. If you would like to see a video of the bullet in action, please visit here:



(Note to Soumyadip: I have also emailed this to cuttingthechai [at] gmail.com which I believe is your email address. It seems the registration issue is now gone so I will post this up here too. Please let me know when you publish your article! I'm happy to help out if you need assistance)

[mehulkamdar]

Bobsled,

I have some questions which I hope you would answer:

1. Thanks for making it clear that you have not built the gun as on your website. My question is has anyone built one so far?

2. I am not an airgunner and only own firearms but I do shoot quite a bit. I am familiar with the designs from Quackenbush and G L Barnes from their respective websites as both companies make the most powerful air rifles available on sale to the public today. If I were to ask you, as a skeptic, how your design with a buddy bottle that is hardly any bigger than that on a commercially available Air Force Condor air rifle could deliver sustained fire with 32 ACP levels of power, that is 125 foot pounds of energy in sustained fire, would you explain how you manage to achieve these levels of power?

Please note that I am clear about my skepticism here and I have no intention of posing any loaded questions. In the same light, I am definitely interested in case you have a working product, to check it out for myself.

And BTW we do have a reputable air rifle manufacturer from the US who recently joined this forum. The gentleman does manufacture very advanced air rifles in the Philippines and I hope that he, too, would step in with his comments on this.

Looking forward to your responses here and with best wishes and thanks for posting on Indians for Guns,

Mehul Kamdar

[bobsled]

Bobsled,
1. Thanks for making it clear that you have not built the gun as on your website. My question is has anyone built one so far?

Other than Jeff Caselman (the man who wrote the guide), I can think of one person currently involved in building this device. That would be P.A Luty. He is having it built by a fellow gunsmith -some photos of his valve system and whatnot are included at the end of the article. I asked him for an update the other day, however he has not received any new parts from his gunsmith since those photographs unfortunately. This leaves us only with the photo of Jeff's Gun if you wish to see a finished product.

By the way, if you haven't seen Luty's website, I suggest you take a look. http://www.thehomegunsmith.com/ (Note that some articles on there are available on the internet for free, such as Caselman)

If I were to ask you, as a skeptic, how your design with a buddy bottle that is hardly any bigger than that on a commercially available Air Force Condor air rifle could deliver sustained fire with 32 ACP levels of power, that is 125 foot pounds of energy in sustained fire, would you explain how you manage to achieve these levels of power?

As I haven't built this device I have not been able to test muzzle energy myself. The .32 ACP equivalent rating I am taking as Jeff's word. I would really like to know more about this too, but he is difficult to contact. As for the sustained fire, the gun is a simple blowback design with a poppet valve. Jeff didn't go into detail regarding rate of fire, however he does touch on weighting the bolt which affects valve dwell time, as a result the rate of fire.

Please note that I am clear about my skepticism here and I have no intention of posing any loaded questions. In the same light, I am definitely interested in case you have a working product, to check it out for myself.

Sure, I can't claim 100% what is stated in the guide until I've tried it myself. Until then, I'm keen to analyze Jeff's work and see how feasible it really is as much as you are.

And BTW we do have a reputable air rifle manufacturer from the US who recently joined this forum. The gentleman does manufacture very advanced air rifles in the Philippines and I hope that he, too, would step in with his comments on this.

It would be great to get an expert opinion on the Caselman air machine gun.

[mehulkamdar]

Bobsled,

While I have no desire to contact someone who seems to want to remain private, has Jeff Caselman built one of these after he wrote the blueprints etc? I would assume that if one were built, there would be some evidence of this somewhere, as, air machine guns would be completely legal in the USA. As such, if this were possible, I could not conceive of no one managing to do this successfully. Indeed, I am more than perplexed, as my friend Mark who posted earlier and who is a Master Engine Machinist is, why a two decade plus old design remains untested and unproven.

And, as I said before, I am a skeptic because of the dimensions shown as well as the drawings of what looks like a Thompson Gun with a buddy bottle attached to it. As of now, this does look like a Photoshopped document to me and little more.

The reason for my persisting on this line is simple. We are an RKBA forum based in a country that has some of the world's most anti gun laws. And, the media in India (of which I was a part while I lived there) is extremely anti gun ownership. I would not like to see someone's flight of fancy used to push through even more anti gun laws in a country where there are already restrictions on airgun power.

That said, if this is possible, and I do think that it is a big if unless I can see proof of one that has been built and tested, I would prefer to remain a skeptic.

Best wishes!

[bobsled]

has Jeff Caselman built one of these after he wrote the blueprints etc?

From what I understand, Jeff built several revisions of the gun before settling on the final design. I would assume he wrote these plans before building the final revision and worked from them in the construction process. As you can see in the black and white photographs the gun is shown in various stages of construction. Unfortunately the detail isn't great, I may be able to contact "Mad Abe" (he found Jeff and distributed the plans) and request a full colour copy.

And, as I said before, I am a skeptic because of the dimensions shown as well as the drawings of what looks like a Thompson Gun with a buddy bottle attached to it. As of now, this does look like a Photoshopped document to me and little more.

I very much doubt there is any trickery involved, the full colour image matches up with the plans correctly as far as I can see. Although this does look quite like a Thompson gun, it is not the same and has completely unique characteristics. Your best bet is to take a look at the full size photos (Just click any of them, then select the "all sizes" option on the following page). You'll see the bolt design and striker match with the plans, along with other aspects of the design such as the valve. I have just uploaded a much larger image for this purpose if you are interested. It's available here. Also, you can view the original document in written form here.

I hope this will extinguish any disbelief you have in Jeff's work. If not, it would be good to get that expert opinion on the matter. Is it possible to draw his attention to this thread?

[mehulkamdar]

Bobsled,

Since you do know someone who "found" Jeff and distributed this copy, I really wonder if it would be possible to show a video of a working prototype of this design. I do know that the plans to build this design are on sale etc and what I still cannot understand is why, in this case, there is virtually no video of one of these being fired? Still pictures hardly tell anything especially when claims are made about a full auto compress air powered gun that puts an output equivalent to 125 fpe with each shot. Frankly, I would have expected to see evidence that this design could, indeed, do what it's inventors claim. Right through all of your posts here, there has been none - so and so did it and I know that someone else saw so and so who did it do it are simply not what one would expect when specific questions fo the kind that have been raised here are asked.

Honestly, with every additional post here, I am even more a skeptic and, unless I can see some demonstrable evidence of performance, would continue to remain one. I do not wish to be impolite to someone who has taken time to register on this forum and post here, but I do think that short of any proof that this actualy works being provided here, this is little more than yet another daydream with little connection to reality.

[bobsled]

Bobsled,

Since you do know someone who "found" Jeff and distributed this copy, I really wonder if it would be possible to show a video of a working prototype of this design. I do know that the plans to build this design are on sale etc and what I still cannot understand is why, in this case, there is virtually no video of one of these being fired?

Yep, It's understandable that you're taking the “Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see" approach. Maybe we could round up the current information about Jeff that's been uncovered by Mad Abe and see if we can get in contact again, so as to get a copy of the video.

For example, Jeff wanted payment to "Caselman Explorations, Box 348, Cameron, MO 64429" - Does anyone live in that area? They would have the best chance of being able to contact him. I believe his phone number is 816-632-6777. Also, his son (North Caselman) lives at 11870 Woodridge In, Cameron, MO 64429, USA and his email is [email protected]

All this info is based on Mad Abe's research which I found here. It was found in 2003 so I am not sure of its current validity. If someone in the USA is prepared to make some phone calls in attempt to contact the Caselman family and obtain a copy of the instructional video, we might be able to get it up online. However, I am doubtful that anyone would have much success, given Mad Abe's experience.

If anyone is interested in doing this, I'd be more than happy to take care of converting the tape to digital form and upload it on the internet for everyone to see. Also, if anyone plans to send an email, please check here before you send any off - we wouldn't want North dealing with a bunch of emails on the same topic.

[penpusher]

So our journalist friend wants to find out if machineguns can be built at home. Hmmm......Visions of India descending into anarchy with a similar machinegun in every persons house?

Now who would want a machinegun.

1.The Armed forces of a country.Can't picture General Sahib knocking together such a cntraption that has little chance of working.Psst...why not tell the folks at DRDO about it.They might set up another dept to try to develope this indigenous concept.Spend 15 years trying and after wasting crores of rupees claim success and try to force the army to buy what the have developed

2.Maoists,terrorists and the like.Somehow,do not see Osama bin laden hunched over a lathe trying to make something like this.It's easy for them to get any machinegun that these people want anywhere in India.This despite the Indian govt. banning imports.Why do these folks don't have the decency to get an import license before they get all those machineguns and assault rifles into the country,is something that has eluded me.Very rude of them.However ,they do seem to observe the three gun limit.


Now lets see what sort of firearms were used in committing mass murders

1.Nazis-Found that using firearms was inefficient and also expensive.So they used gass

2.Russia under Stalin-Gulags

3.China under Mao-starvation,labour camps

4.Cambodia-labour camps,starvation and choppers

5.Rwanda-choppers

6.Anti-sikh riots-Lathis,burning tyres

7.Gujerat riots-choppers,gas cylinders,lathis....


Don't see any gas powered machineguns anywhere.

penpusher

[mundaire]

Not to mention the fact that black market AK's seem to be available at a fraction of the cost of any legally imported gun! Still... the government persists in harassing the law abiding folk, who wish to acquire a license and obey the law, while rewarding the crooks who cock a snook at all laws!

I guess since (more often than not) our politicians seem to be hand in glove with crooks, they'd much rather their partners (the crooks) have guns AS OPPOSED TO the law abiding electorate, which might make their partners (the crooks) working environment a tad dangerous! Though the funny thing is, almost no one seems to see how our arms laws disarm the good guys while doing nothing to disarm the bad guys!

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[mehulkamdar]

penpusher/Abhijeet,

Two excellent posts.

I'll just add that I find it very interesting that the so called "liberals" who want to ban guns, knives and whatever else, are the same morons who oppose capital punishment for those who misuse illegal firearms and use them against other people. Does show that these people have something missing in their brains.

It was Sigmund Freud who observed very rightly, after all, "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." If we were to look closely at the most hardened anti gunners, it would be obvious that they are perverts and deviants in one way or another.

Cheers!

[dev]

Dev

So our journalist friend wants to find out if machineguns can be built at home. Hmmm......Visions of India descending into anarchy with a similar machinegun in every persons house?

Now who would want a machinegun.

1.The Armed forces of a country.Can't picture General Sahib knocking together such a cntraption that has little chance of working.Psst...why not tell the folks at DRDO about it.They might set up another dept to try to develope this indigenous concept.Spend 15 years trying and after wasting crores of rupees claim success and try to force the army to buy what the have developed

2.Maoists,terrorists and the like.Somehow,do not see Osama bin laden hunched over a lathe trying to make something like this.It's easy for them to get any machinegun that these people want anywhere in India.This despite the Indian govt. banning imports.Why do these folks don't have the decency to get an import license before they get all those machineguns and assault rifles into the country,is something that has eluded me.Very rude of them.However ,they do seem to observe the three gun limit.


Now lets see what sort of firearms were used in committing mass murders

1.Nazis-Found that using firearms was inefficient and also expensive.So they used gass

2.Russia under Stalin-Gulags

3.China under Mao-starvation,labour camps

4.Cambodia-labour camps,starvation and choppers

5.Rwanda-choppers

6.Anti-sikh riots-Lathis,burning tyres

7.Gujerat riots-choppers,gas cylinders,lathis....


Don't see any gas powered machineguns anywhere.

penpusher

[bobsled]

UPDATE

After years of attempts to acquire the videos, Mad Abe has successfully found them and converted them to digital format. I am receiving the videos of the Caselman gun as we speak.