Lever Action or Double Rifle?

[TwoRivers]

A 6.5mm chambering for an English double would most like be the 6.5x53Rmm Mannlicher round (Romanian & Dutch) which was quite popular and which Kynoch produced. While the case can be readily made from .303 British cases, it is obsolete.
Also, while the blackpowder may be readily available for a .450 BP Express, primers would not be. Percussion caps for ML rifles are not the same as primers for cartridges.

[miroflex]

I think the rifle in consideration takes a rimless cartridge i.e. the 6.5 x 54 mm.

Regards.

[TwoRivers]

I think the rifle in consideration takes a rimless cartridge i.e. the 6.5 x 54 mm.

Regards.

That would be an unusual chambering for a double. A look at the extractor and breech end of the chambers would confirm which cartridge it is chambered for. In any case, the rimless will chamber and fire, but will not extract unless the extractor has been modified. A pic of the open breech, the rear end of the chambers, would be helpful.

Regards.

[mundaire]

Also, while the blackpowder may be readily available for a .450 BP Express, primers would not be. Percussion caps for ML rifles are not the same as primers for cartridges.

I understand that they are different, but was under the impression that percussion caps could be used for reloading with BP.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[miroflex]

Also, while the blackpowder may be readily available for a .450 BP Express, primers would not be. Percussion caps for ML rifles are not the same as primers for cartridges.

I understand that they are different, but was under the impression that percussion caps could be used for reloading with BP.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

Bullets would be difficult to source and may have to be cast by hand. Bullet moulds will also not be available and would have to be fabricated. Problems...problems...

Nevertheless, it would be grand to fire off a few rounds from the black powder .450.

Regards.

[miroflex]

Thank you James. Can you suggest someone who is experienced in the reloading of old cartridges and can help in the conversion of empty fired brass shells into live .450 cartridges. By the way, where are you based?

I am told that there was a gentleman in Kanpur who was proficient in reloading but has unfortunately passed away. He has left no successor in this field.

All the best.

[miroflex]

Miroflex: After being declared dead in the US by most gurus, clueless that it was alive and well in Europe, the .22 Hornet has regained popularity in the US and should be around for a long time. Though it is getting competition from newer rounds.

The .22 Savage is dead in the US, but lives on in Europe as the 5.6x52R. There, too, it is losing popularity to newer cartridges. Its "odd" .227" bullet works against it. I would not recommend it, though a good choice for your purpose otherwise.

The .250 Savage, too, has lost popularity to newer cartridges. Though an excellent choice, I would also not recommend it in your situation. Ditto the .300 Savage. A good choice for your purpose, but it has been largely pushed aside by the .308 WCF and other similar cartridges. Ammo for both is limited in loadings, and difficult to find. But still plenty of rifles in use.

The .30-30 is still high on the US list, ammo should be readily available for a long time, and it, too, would be a good choice.

The .32-40. Dead. Only occasionally loaded for a commemorative. Not very powerful, but would do for your purpose .

The .33 WCF. Good cartridge, but dead for good. Needlessly powerful for your purpose.

The .44-40. Dying until somewhat revived by Cowboy Shooting. Good for close range, but at longer range it's a "potato thrower" .

Have I helped you any?, probably not. Without the ability to get components and reload, and an ammunition quota, your situation differs from mine. In your place, I'd opt for the .30-30 or .22 Hornet.

Regards.

I saw two rifles in .22 Hornet today, both made by Savage. One was short barreled and the other was longer overall. Cartridges are available fairly easily in India and not very expensive, the price range starting from about a dollar each for S & B and going up to three dollars each for Winchester.

How effective is the .22 Hornet for home defence and how much more effective than a .22 LR for the purpose? I ask because of the significant difference in prices of the two calibres of rifles. A bolt action .22 rimfire rifle in good condition with a five round magazine would cost around $ 1,000 while a .22 Hornet would be nearer the $ 7,000 mark.

A 7x57 mm Mauser would be about as expensive as a .22 Hornet but much more powerful than the latter.

Since the .405 Winchester has been ruled out by most members as being much too powerful for home defence, I am now exploring options available at the other end of the spectrum. This is particularly because I am now looking for a weapon suitable for use by my wife who is lightly built and may flinch from heavy recoil.

I invite views of fellow members, particularly Timmy and Two Rivers, who have both taken a keen interest in this thread.

Warm regards to all.

[TwoRivers]

Miroflex: As far as rifles go, the .22 Hornet would make an excellent home defense weapon; though neither of the Savage models would be my choice. Knowing what models they are would be helpful. The Model 340 bolt I would avoid; the Model 23D has a tendency to develop d excessive headspace, though it can be fixed with a shim between the two parts of the bolt.
The Model 219, a break-open single, would be o.k.

The .22 Hornet is considerably more powerful, roughly twice the velocity and a 10% heavier bullet. Anyone hit would take immediate notice. Yet recoil is negligible, even a slightly built woman unaccustomed to shooting would not mind.
Regards.

[miroflex]

Miroflex: As far as rifles go, the .22 Hornet would make an excellent home defense weapon; though neither of the Savage models would be my choice. Knowing what models they are would be helpful. The Model 340 bolt I would avoid; the Model 23D has a tendency to develop d excessive headspace, though it can be fixed with a shim between the two parts of the bolt.
The Model 219, a break-open single, would be o.k.

The .22 Hornet is considerably more powerful, roughly twice the velocity and a 10% heavier bullet. Anyone hit would take immediate notice. Yet recoil is negligible, even a slightly built woman unaccustomed to shooting would not mind.
Regards.

Thanks for your advice.

Would the .22 long rifle cartridge be suitable for home defence or is it too low powered to be considered for the purpose?

One of the dealers said the Savage is a Model 1917 Sporter. Another Savage is a 23 D in a short barrel. The third is a Model 19 with a normal or longer barrel. All these are bolt action rifles. Any advice on the relative merits or demerits of these models?

Regards.

[TwoRivers]

Would the .22 long rifle cartridge be suitable for home defence or is it too low powered to be considered for the purpose?

One of the dealers said the Savage is a Model 1917 Sporter. Another Savage is a 23 D in a short barrel. The third is a Model 19 with a normal or longer barrel. All these are bolt action rifles. Any advice on the relative merits or demerits of these models?

Regards.

In lieu of something better and bigger, yes. Especially with hollow points. It will certainly kill, over time. But very rarely will it incapacitate instantly.

The Savage Model 1917 is a semi-auto pistol. The Model 19, usually designated "Sporter", is a .22 RF; only the Model 23 is a center fire rifle. It came in .22 Hornet, .25-20, and .32-20. If it has a "short" barrel, the barrel has probably been cut. On this model,as with the Model 19, the barrel is integral with the receiver.

Regards.

[miroflex]

Would the .22 long rifle cartridge be suitable for home defence or is it too low powered to be considered for the purpose?

One of the dealers said the Savage is a Model 1917 Sporter. Another Savage is a 23 D in a short barrel. The third is a Model 19 with a normal or longer barrel. All these are bolt action rifles. Any advice on the relative merits or demerits of these models?

Regards.

In lieu of something better and bigger, yes. Especially with hollow points. It will certainly kill, over time. But very rarely will it incapacitate instantly.

The Savage Model 1917 is a semi-auto pistol. The Model 19, usually designated "Sporter", is a .22 RF; only the Model 23 is a center fire rifle. It came in .22 Hornet, .25-20, and .32-20. If it has a "short" barrel, the barrel has probably been cut. On this model,as with the Model 19, the barrel is integral with the receiver.

Regards.

The model numbers of the three Savage rifles were read out to me on telephone by the dealers concerned. They may have read the numbers incorrectly.

I am grateful for your comments on the .22 Long Rifle cartridge.

Prices of rifles are a major factor in India. Rimfire .22 rifles are available from $ 1,000 to $ 5,000, depending upon make and condition. Brnos are among the top price range.

Rifles in .22 Hornet are more expensive, ranging from $ 4,000 to $ 10,000. Brno and Krico are among the more expensive makes.

The much higher prices of .22 Hornets makes one speculate about the stopping power of the .22 LR cartridge.

Regards.

[TwoRivers]

The model numbers of the three Savage rifles were read out to me on telephone by the dealers concerned. They may have read the numbers incorrectly.

I am grateful for your comments on the .22 Long Rifle cartridge.

Prices of rifles are a major factor in India. Rimfire .22 rifles are available from $ 1,000 to $ 5,000, depending upon make and condition. Brnos are among the top price range.

Rifles in .22 Hornet are more expensive, ranging from $ 4,000 to $ 10,000. Brno and Krico are among the more expensive makes.

The much higher prices of .22 Hornets makes one speculate about the stopping power of the .22 LR cartridge.

Regards.

While the term "stopping power" gets bandied about quite a lot, there is no such defineable thing. A good hit, regardless of caliber will kill quickly, a poor hit won't regardless of caliber. A bigger hole will cause more bleeding, but even a shot with a .600 NE in the gut is just that. It is the hit that counts, and the ability of the bullet to reach a vital organ. So it is the shooter who determines the "stopping power", not the size of the cartridge or bullet. Something more powerful than a .22 RF may shatter a leg whereas the .22 RF won't at longer distance, but a leg is not what we usually aim for.

With few exceptions .22 RF rifles are always cheaper to produce, having less complex actions, and not requiring the steels and heat treatment of center fires. Simply less gun, which should be reflected in the price.

Regards.

[miroflex]

] Prices of rifles are a major factor in India. Rimfire .22 rifles are available from $ 1,000 to $ 5,000, depending upon make and condition. Brnos are among the top price range. Rifles in .22 Hornet are more expensive, ranging from $ 4,000 to $ 10,000. Brno and Krico are among the more expensive makes. The much higher prices of .22 Hornets makes one speculate about the stopping power of the .22 LR cartridge. Regards.

With few exceptions .22 RF rifles are always cheaper to produce, having less complex actions, and not requiring the steels and heat treatment of center fires. Simply less gun, which should be reflected in the price. Regards.

What I find surprising is that the more expensive .22 rimfires are costlier than many centrefire rifles. One would have thought that the position would be othrwise. Rgards.

[TwoRivers]

Yes. Prices for the better .22 rim fire rifles overlap and are higher than those of the "entry level" cheaper centerfires. But they have actions like miniature centerfire rifles and fancy wood. But you don't have any .22 RF rifles carrying a price of $2,000 to $4,000. (Except in India.) Regards.

[hks2056]

Dear Miroflex
Coming back to your first post on this thread as to best self defense rifle I would draw your kind attention to the fact that you possess IOF 315 rifle. It fires a bullet weighing 240 grains at about 2100 fps. It is thinly jacketed with soft lead core as KF does not add any antimony or any other alloy to harden it. I have owned one and extensively fired from it into various mediums for distances upto 150 yards. The bullet always disintegrated upon impact and it was never recovered in mushroom form. What could be better self defense weapon than 315? The rifle is 100 percent reliable. Fresh ammo is available in every city.After spending more than three decades with firearms, what are you searching for now is not clear to me. If you read medico legal cases in India no one has survived after taking a torso hit from 315 fired from a rifle.I am not talking about the ones fired from "katta" by criminals. Rapidly disintegrating bullet causes very extensive trauma and bleeding leading to inevitable death.Media reports show that people hit with FMJ 303 bullets fired by police have survived. Thank God that our police is not armed with IOF 315 bore rifle.I would suggest that you try your 315 rifle firing into various mediums at a safe place and see the results.
Regards