For all those who think thay can not handle a .45

[Safarigent]

Its good to have kids started early.
No doubt about it

[TC]

[youtube][/youtube]

Here is another video of little Mico Andres from Manila, practicing Practical Shooting under adult supervision, probably his father who has posted all the videos on youtube. It now seems I don't know much about guns and shooting but I believe IPSC still stands for International Practical Shooting Confederation.

Gentleman I am extremely sorry and take back every word I said. Every kid showing interest in practical shooting (one can also look at it as shooting in a combat mode if I am not way off the mark) should be taught to handle 45 automatics under adult supervision. After all millions of kids across the globe waste hours playing shooting and search and destroy games on X Box, Play stations and computers. I am not very sure but it seems while I was asleep it had already been proved beyond all reasonable doubts by psychologists, sociologists, doctors and scientists in Europe and the US (forget India , we are a poor country after all) that shooting games, violent cartoons, films and even television news etc leave no deep impact on growing/ tender minds. So I see no harm in teaching them how to shoot the real big guns, reload magazines fast and shoot down all targets within a stipulated time. After all, if Max Payne can do it there is no reason why they cant do it in real life.



TC

Winnie: I keep my guns under lock and key and take them out only for cleaning. Can't remember when I left home with one of them.

[FN-Five-Seven]

Other than a you did not make any statement until now.

So if I used a emotion to express that I agreed with someone's post , was I violating the Rules & Regulations of IFG ?
Is there a minimum word count level , that any member has to fulfill as he / she is posting a comment ?
If not , the above statement of the post does not hold any water .

So you feel a child cannot be taught safe gun handling? Reallly? On what do you base this premise?

Depends , are you suggesting that you are teaching a child by showing him visual aids or actually putting a loaded firearm with live ammunition in the child's hands ?
Try teaching a 7 yr old PhD level calculus , and then find out how much he actually retained of the teaching .Same goes for "Firearm Safety " instruction , teach him all day and then find out , how much he actually retained .

If a parent , makes a video of his child firing actual ammunition , uploads it to Youtube , waiting for "Likes " and "Subs" , it's not a " Firearms Safety " video , it's showing off his kid . With a little effort , anyone can dig up enough videos from Youtube , which show a young kid getting injured while firing a firearm , surrounded by adults , providing "Adult Supervision "

I don't "feel" ; I firmly believe that giving a loaded firearm to a young kid is inappropriate . And it's based on Common Sense . Common Sense that there is a proper age for every activity .

I would like to drawn your attention to something which is very important . Do look up the The Arms Rule , 1962 . Under Rule 16 , it states that the minimum age for a person to shoot a firearm , for target practicing or training ,is 12 years , under direct adult supervision of an instructor or licensee . So if anyone allows a kid less than 12 years , say 7 or 8 , to fire an firearm , he is in direct violation of The Arms Rules ,1962 . And if the Licensing Authority or any other concerned authority gets a whif of any such violations , rest assure that they will be working overtime to revoke the Arms License and may even pile up other charges against such individual .

It does not really matter , what people ,in US , Europe or any other foreign countries ,are doing with their kids and achieving what results , simply because Government of those countries did not issue the Arms License to a citizen of India . Indian Government did . And whether an Indian citizen likes it or not , he/she has to abide by the Laws of India , no matter how ridiculous they may seem to the Arms Licensee .

And I don't think violating the very conditions on which an Arms License is issued , is a trait of a responsible gun owner .

Also it does not serve an individual's best interest to go on bragging on the record that , he / she being a Arms License holder , violated the Conditions on which the Arms License was issued , by giving a loaded firearm to a 7-8 year old .

Supporting such Rule Violating activities only puts an individual in the cross-hairs of the Licensing Authority and Police ; believe me it's not a nice place to be in .

I, on the other hand, I can name quite a few adults, including IFG members, who haven't a clue about safe gun handling.

It's good to know that you have a in depth knowledge of several members of IFG . But it's Off Topic , as far as this thread is concerned .

It isn't age but rather one's upbringing and the society and company one chooses that leads to school shootings, etc.

I do agree that factors Social Background , Family life , etc played a vital role in the activities where an individual killed a lot of innocent persons without any reason .
But , I never mentioned , in any of my posts in this thread or this forum as a matter of fact ,that mere possession of a firearm turns an individual into a mass murderer . So it's again an Off-Topic , as far as my posts of this thread are concerned .

F-N-Five-Seven

[Mack The Knife]

So if I used a emotion to express that I agreed with someone's post , was I violating the Rules & Regulations of IFG ?
Is there a minimum word count level , that any member has to fulfill as he / she is posting a comment ?
If not , the above statement of the post does not hold any water .

I was merely indicating that your first post was of little substance.

Depends , are you suggesting that you are teaching a child by showing him visual aids or actually putting a loaded firearm with live ammunition in the child's hands ?
Try teaching a 7 yr old PhD level calculus , and then find out how much he actually retained of the teaching .Same goes for "Firearm Safety " instruction , teach him all day and then find out , how much he actually retained .

I don't have to find out anything. In case the penny hasn't dropped, they are already well versed in safe gun handling. My children were taught safe gun handling the day they started playing with toy guns.

If a parent , makes a video of his child firing actual ammunition , uploads it to Youtube , waiting for "Likes " and "Subs" , it's not a " Firearms Safety " video , it's showing off his kid . With a little effort , anyone can dig up enough videos from Youtube , which show a young kid getting injured while firing a firearm , surrounded by adults , providing "Adult Supervision "

Firearms safety video? In case you have forgotten...please look up the title of this thread again.

I don't "feel" ; I firmly believe that giving a loaded firearm to a young kid is inappropriate . And it's based on Common Sense . Common Sense that there is a proper age for every activity.

You can believe what you like but don't associate your beliefs with common sense. I am telling you, through personal experience, that a child taught safe gun handling is as safe as an adult who is well versed in safe gun handling and infinitely safer than many adults who haven't a clue about safe gun handling. It is the latter that need to apply common sense when handling a gun.

I would like to drawn your attention to something which is very important . Do look up the The Arms Rule , 1962 . Under Rule 16 , it states that the minimum age for a person to shoot a firearm , for target practicing or training ,is 12 years , under direct adult supervision of an instructor or licensee . So if anyone allows a kid less than 12 years , say 7 or 8 , to fire an firearm , he is in direct violation of The Arms Rules ,1962 . And if the Licensing Authority or any other concerned authority gets a whif of any such violations , rest assure that they will be working overtime to revoke the Arms License and may even pile up other charges against such individual.

All well and good assuming we were in India.

It does not really matter , what people ,in US , Europe or any other foreign countries ,are doing with their kids and achieving what results , simply because Government of those countries did not issue the Arms License to a citizen of India . Indian Government did . And whether an Indian citizen likes it or not , he/she has to abide by the Laws of India , no matter how ridiculous they may seem to the Arms Licensee.

Granted, Indian children cannot shoot firearms in India until they are 12 but that is not what we are discussing. The subject under discussion is whether children, world over, should be allowed to shoot firearms or not.

Also it does not serve an individual's best interest to go on bragging on the record that , he / she being a Arms License holder , violated the Conditions on which the Arms License was issued , by giving a loaded firearm to a 7-8 year old.

I don't believe anyone was braggging. The aforesaid examples were mentioned to show that children can use guns safely and that they don't turn into psychopaths merely because they were exposed to guns at a young age.

It's good to know that you have a in depth knowledge of several members of IFG . But it's Off Topic , as far as this thread is concerned .

On the contrary. Go back and read the context in which that statement was made.

I do agree that factors Social Background , Family life , etc played a vital role in the activities where an individual killed a lot of innocent persons without any reason .
But , I never mentioned , in any of my posts in this thread or this forum as a matter of fact ,that mere possession of a firearm turns an individual into a mass murderer . So it's again an Off-Topic , as far as my posts of this thread are concerned.

It may be off topic with regard to your posts but it still applies to one of the reasons brought up by TC.

[hvj1]

..you can deduce this from the video! Are you Sherlock Holmes?

What is your experience in firing a .45? How many shots have you fired and at what rate? Forget your hitting the target, that is irrelevant and not germane to the issue under discussion.

[winnie_the_pooh]

hvj1,

How severe do you think the recoil should have been? Do check Mark's photo of his son,as a small boy,firing his dads .45.

As far as firing a gun goes,every time I fire one I am not aware of either the noise or the recoil,unless I switch guns or calibers while shooting.

[hvj1]

WTP
Unless until you have fired a .45 at the rate that kid is firing, you will realize what I am getting at. That is why I asked you, whether you have any personal experience on the matter, If you do, then we can move on to discuss the specifics.

[winnie_the_pooh]

WTP
Unless until you have fired a .45 at the rate that kid is firing, you will realize what I am getting at. That is why I asked you, whether you have any personal experience on the matter, If you do, then we can move on to discuss the specifics.

Nope.Never fired anything more powerful than a BB gun.

Based on the recoil,what calibre pistol do you think that the kid is shooting?

[timmy]

It's good to know that you have a in depth knowledge of several members of IFG .

As a matter of fact, you are right. he does.

I don't "feel" ; I firmly believe that giving a loaded firearm to a young kid is inappropriate . And it's based on Common Sense . Common Sense that there is a proper age for every activity.

1. Believe or feel, neither is anything more than a subjective quantity.

2. Common Sense: Bertrand Russell argues against the existence of this, with good reason.

3. Sure, there is a proper age for every activity. And that proper age differs for every individual. Some can handle a gun at 4, others, never. My question is, why do you feel qualified to set yourself up as an authority on what that age should be for all? Is it because you base your sagacious judgment based on your belief, what you think, or common sense? Sorry, I cannot by what you are peddling. Since I believe and think the opposite of you, where are we in a logical discussion? You have not established anything in your argument at all.

[hvj1]

WTP,
Thank you for being candid, here is the answer to your question;

One more thing. Although the boy was firing a .45, from the recoil and report it seemed it was either fitted with a .22 (or maybe 380) conversion kit or loaded with low pressure rounds and fitted with a soft recoil spring. I had taken part in a similar drill at Manila in 2001.
TC

Many years ago, when i was a coach to army team, we were drilling on 9mms. One of the drills I was putting the team through, was to rapid fire on 5 targets at 25 ms. The idea was to shoot all 5 targets within 4 seconds, the objective was to develop more confidence on the trigger. Most of the chaps missed the 4th and 5th target entirely (forget hitting the black). Incidentally we were shooting at Standard Pistol ISSF targets.

An officer friend of mine had brought his personal .45 1911 and we tried the same format. Believe me the 9mm recoil takes a lot of practice as ot is, but when it came to firing the .45. Well! Firing a shot at a time, I could hit the black, but it took me time to recover , from the point of view of regripping (shooting with one hand).

I tried the 4 sec Rapid fire format and believe you me, I ran out of time by the time I had fired my third shot.

That is why the Rate of fire and the recoil matters. ESPECIALLY with a small boy 7 years old who has much smaller hands than mine.

And that is why, I am inclined to go along with what TC has said. Incidentally, T.C. is no bunny with a hand gun, the number of guns and different calibers will come as a surprise to many.

Finally, while the boy in the video warms the cockles of my heart, I am not in favour of 7 year old training regularly on the .45s. Why? Because the recoil takes a toll on the wrist, which in a 7 year old is still in a formative age. In the later years the child may suffer injuries which may become chronic. A .22 is good enough. ,

[TC]

Mack, Timmy and Winnie...

I start with apologies to other forum members and Mods because today, after having spent seven years on this forum, I feel tempted to question my own sensibilities. And, for all the good reasons.

This is what Mack says :

You can believe what you like but don't associate your beliefs with common sense. I am telling you, through personal experience, that a child taught safe gun handling is as safe as an adult who is well versed in safe gun handling and infinitely safer than many adults who haven't a clue about safe gun handling. It is the latter that need to apply common sense when handling a gun.

You mention personal experience. Can you please tell us how many children have undergone firearms training under your guidance and how many of them have proved to be as safe as adults "well versed" (now that's a new usage of the word in weaponry) in safe gun handling ? Your confidence tells me the number must be substantial or else it could not have been the conclusive result of your survey. And before you reply please take a good look at the youtube video that I posted and not the one this thread started with. Please watch the whole video.. right to the end so that the definition of "child" becomes clear to you as a father.

I don't have to find out anything. In case the penny hasn't dropped, they are already well versed in safe gun handling. My children were taught safe gun handling the day they started playing with toy guns.

Mack I have one question to ask - At precisely what age did your children start playing with toy guns ? Are you suggesting that you gave them real guns and toy guns on the same day ? Did they show interest in both and is that what prompted you to teach them how to handle the real gun? In that case who taught them to use the toy guns? Because my shallow knowledge (which seems to be getting shallower every minute now) tells me that even certain toy guns need adult supervision, at least when they are used for the first time. I really want to be enlightened here.


And this is what Timmy says:

Sure, there is a proper age for every activity. And that proper age differs for every individual. Some can handle a gun at 4, others, never. My question is, why do you feel qualified to set yourself up as an authority on what that age should be for all? Is it because you base your sagacious judgment based on your belief, what you think, or common sense? Sorry, I cannot by what you are peddling.

If there is proper age for every activity and if that proper age differs for every individual then how come we try keep ALL children away from alcohol, pornography, marijuana and sex. Who says we are qualified to set ourselves up as authorities on what that age should be when they can have sex, watch pornography and smoke joints? Are we supposed to understand that pornography affects a child's mental development and a fast firing 45 auto does not? Has there been any global survey on this ? A survey you and some members seem to be privy to while lesser mortals such as me have been left out. I am dying to be enlightened because this can be a global news.

And gentlemen, let me tell you that people who know their weapons follow their instincts and not "common sense" when they touch a weapon - be it a firearm or a razor.

Winnie the Pooh, If other forum members and I go ahead and accept your humble admission that you never fired anything more powerful than a BB gun then I should not not insist on knowing what was that .25 CZ Double Action Only (DAO) pistol with safety catch that you saw and found so ridiculous ? (referring to another thread here, Mods please excuse me). But please never ask me again what I have done with my guns. This was your second mistake. A months ago you questioned my conviction and belief in RKBA. I am a gentleman and rubbed it off my shoulders. Before making your third mistake you should reveal your real identity, post a recent photograph of your own face and sign your name. For, men who live with steel do not take potshots while hiding behind avatars or pseudonyms. If you cannot then I advice you to stay off these antics.

Regards

Tanmay Chatterjee
The entire forum knows where I stay and where I work and my recent photograph is available in the album section and Moin's thread "the faces behind the blades"

[winnie_the_pooh]

TC,

Thank you for pointing out my mistakes.I will probably not learn anything from them.You are indeed a brave man for revealing your identity.Brave.... and a 'gentleman' to boot.Splendid.

[xl_target]

Gentlemen,
All of us need to take a deep breath. We are like minded people discussing a subject that is dear to all of us.
We need to be able to have a reasoned, dispassionate discussion with each other.
Please don't make assumptions about each other. You know what they say about that.

That being said, I think WTP's statement of only having fired a BB gun should not be taken literally (as it has). Sarcasm doesn't transfer well in a forum post.

On the topic of the kid and his gun handling:

Please also remember IPSC, IDPA, etc are games and can be gamed. For some of the categories in these games, cartridges can be downloaded to a point. These guns are polished, tuned and sprung to guarantee the bare minimum of force will make them cycle. However, there are some "Power Factor" rules that must be met that guarantee that under powered cartridges can't be used. Minor Power Factor in USPSA is a 115 grain 9mm bullet travelling at over 1000 fps. If the kid is shooting an official match, he won't be using .22LR. Most organizations have a minimum bullet diameter and cartridge casing requirement. For example USPSA rules require Minimum bullet caliber / cartridge case length of .38 cal. / 9x19 mm. So at the minimum, the kid may be firing 9mm. As to the lack of recoil that you observe, a lot of it can be mitigated with the proper grip. We are not talking cup and saucer here. The proper grip when used in the way that it is supposed to be used will return the gun to the same position shot after shot, allowing rapid follow up shots with out aiming. These guys do not have to think out each shot. They fire so many rounds that their muscle memory takes over (that is why so many of the champion shooters keep stressing the need to dry fire).
Ranges to target are close, starting at 7 yds. You won't find too many people shooting at 25 yards with a pistol in these matches. Targets are large; an approximation of a man sized torso.

So lets keep in mind that:
1. The kid is shooting a centerfire caliber of 9mm or larger.
2. His ammunition has to meet a minimum power factor.
3. We are not shooting Bullseye here. Targets are relatively large.
4. The range to target is limited.
5. If you view the video clip on You Tube, the caption says: "WORLD RECORD 6YEAR OLD FIRING 45 CALIBER LEVEL IV MATCH AUSTRALASIA 3GUN CHAMPIONSHIP."

The control, gun handling and recoil management is just the kid; firing a full size centerfire cartridge and doing well enough to be in an international match.
The recommended minimum number of rounds to be fired in a Level IV match is 300 rounds for a handgun.

This kid is just DAMN good.


Please see the rules and regs for IPSC here: http://www.ipsc.org/pdf/RulesHandgun.pdf
Please see the rules and regs for USPSA here: http://www.uspsa.org/rules/2010HandgunR ... of3web.pdf

[timmy]

TC, your questions to me are very easy to answer

If there is proper age for every activity and if that proper age differs for every individual then how come we try keep ALL children away from alcohol, pornography, marijuana and sex. Who says we are qualified to set ourselves up as authorities on what that age should be when they can have sex, watch pornography and smoke joints?

Regarding alcohol, pornography, and marijuana, I didn't need to make an effort to keep my kids away from these things, since none of these things were in our home and we lived in rural areas when they grew up, and such things were not easy to come by.

Regarding sex, in the USA schools, it seems that there is never any lack of volunteers to teach kids about sex. I felt that those issues, like guns, were subjects best taught at home by parents, so I wrote letters to the schools excusing my kids and taught that and guns at home. Because two of them have been married for 16 years, one for 15 years, and one for 12 years, all to the first and same persons they said "I do" to, I figure that my methods for teaching sex and guns stand up reasonably well.

Your last question regarding who says I'm qualified to make such decisions is answered by the law and millennia of human social experience: I am the parent, therefore I made many such decisions regarding the welfare of my children. I expect others to exercise the same responsibilities with their children.

Now, having answered your challenge and questions, I will note, that when I challenged your right to impose your judgments on others in this matter, you did not answer me, but in essence responded with a "what's yours?" question. I have responded without demanding that you answer my question first, but I did notice that you never did answer my question to you.

[kanwar76]

I have just read this thread and my take away is

1. Guns are equal to pornography/drugs
2. We should not expose our kids to guns as they might turn out to be mass killers when they grow up.

Good going guys.. keep it up..