Lever Action or Double Rifle?

[Hammerhead]

I fired with .303 In a NCC camp during my collage days. I don't know what ours experienced IFG person thought. But In my openion due to effective range it is the best rifle.

.303 Muzzle Velocity are 2,441 ft/s (744 m/s)and its effective range are (550 yd) 503 m and Maximum range are 3,000 yd (2,743 m) It holds a 5 to 10 cartiges 10-round magazine, loaded with 5-round charger clips. 30-06 hold 3 rounds( from outside if you purchased 6 round magzine).And imp thing its effective range are 400m. I am not telling here that .303 are the best for everything,And 30-06 are not. I am only mentioned here due to its effective range.

Please ............

[James_Bond]

.303 Muzzle Velocity are 2,441 ft/s (744 m/s)and its effective range are (550 yd) 503 m and Maximun range are 3,000 yd (2,743 m) It holds a 5 to 10 cartiges 10-round magazine, loaded with 5-round charger clips. 30-06 hold 3 rounds( from outside if you purchased 6 round magzine).And imp thing its effective range are 400m. I am not telling here that .303 are the best for everthing,And 30-06 are not. I am only mentioned here due to its effective range.

Do you even have a clue what the term "effective range" means? Would you please define what that term means to you?

Yes I have the clue. You tell, me have you the clue about effective range . if yes than mentioned here

.303 Muzzle Velocity are 2,441 ft/s (744 m/s)and its effective range are (550 yd) 503 m and Maximum range are 3,000 yd (2,743 m) It holds a 5 to 10 cartiges 10-round magazine, loaded with 5-round charger clips. 30-06 hold 3 rounds( from outside if you purchased 6 round magzine).And imp thing its effective range are 400m. I am not telling here that .303 are the best for everything,And 30-06 are not. I am only mentioned here due to its effective range.

Please ............

Don't beat a dead hourse. .303 is not a dead hourse. Its really a aausm, if you handle it than you know about it.

[Skyman]

007, he was referring to the debate not the cartridge....back to MI6!

[TwoRivers]

Yes I have the clue. You tell, me have you the clue about effective range . if yes than mentioned here

So please define it.

[Vikram]

James_Bond,

No offence but if we do not know what we are talking about, it is not a shame to listen to those who do and learn from them. Playing belligerent will help none.

Best-
Vikram

[James_Bond]

James_Bond,

No offence but if we do not know what we are talking about, it is not a shame to listen to those who do and learn from them. Playing belligerent will help none.

Best-
Vikram

Bro here I explain only my openion. And It might be possible that my openion are not the best openion. If my openion/Words heart any body feeling than I am extermly Sorry.

[miroflex]

This thread has digressed quite a bit from its title and opening post regarding the more suitable action for home defence, a Model 1895 Winchester or a top break hammerless double rifle, both in calibre .405 Winchester.

The rival merits of various rifle cartridges have been discussed here as well as the superiority of shotguns as opposed to rifles. I too have connived at it by participating in these off topic discussionss

Fellow member James Bond has dealt with the performance of the .303 British (as opposed to the .303 Savage) and the .30-06 cartridges at long ranges. As far as I know, the Model 1895 was available in both these chamberings. The .303 being a prohibited bore in India is of only passing interest to me. I have not come across a Model 1895 in .30-06 calibre so far. It is said that the 1895 action did not stand up well to the high pressures generated by the cartridge.

In any case long range performance is of limited application in home defence. It is at short to medium ranges that most home defence and self defence situations are likely to arise.

I have just been offered a double barrel hammerless rifle in ".450 bore" by a dealer on telephone. Let us see whether it is a .450-400 or some other older, obsolete calibre. Cartridges will be difficult to obtain if it is some bore other than .450-400.

Meanwhile, I would welcome suggestions from fellow members regarding suitable rifles for home defence or self defence that may be for sale.

Regards.

[TwoRivers]

I have just been offered a double barrel hammerless rifle in ".450 bore" by a dealer on telephone. Let us see whether it is a .450-400 or some other older, obsolete calibre. Cartridges will be difficult to obtain if it is some bore other than .450-400.

Meanwhile, I would welcome suggestions from fellow members regarding suitable rifles for home defence or self defence that may be for sale.

Regards.

A ".450 bore" would not be a .450-400, as that is a .400 bore. The British designated cartridges by naming the basic case first, then the bore the case was necked to.

[miroflex]

I have just been offered a double barrel hammerless rifle in ".450 bore" by a dealer on telephone. Let us see whether it is a .450-400 or some other older, obsolete calibre. Cartridges will be difficult to obtain if it is some bore other than .450-400.

Meanwhile, I would welcome suggestions from fellow members regarding suitable rifles for home defence or self defence that may be for sale.

Regards.

A ".450 bore" would not be a .450-400, as that is a .400 bore. The British designated cartridges by naming the basic case first, then the bore the case was necked to.

I agree. The dealer may, however, have used the term loosely. I have heard many dealers refer to a Martini action as a "Greener action", possibly because the firm built many rifles and shotguns on this action.

I have read of "clutch actions" in this forum and am unsure whether this refers to lever action or slide (pump) action.

On a more serious note, do you feel that a hammer or a hammerless rifle would be more useful for home defence purposes? It would be safer to keep the hammer gun in a loaded condition with the hammers at half cock rather than a hammerless one with the hammers cocked and only a tang mounted sliding safety catch. If the hammerless weapon is kept unloaded it will have to be opened, loaded and closed which will take some time. On the other it will be quicker to reload than a hammer gun. Which do you think confers a greater advantage?

Regards.

[TwoRivers]

Probably the one you are familiar with. Half-cock is not fool-proof either, and hammers can be jarred out of the half-cock position if the gun is dropped, and the hammer struck. I can't really say I'd have a preference, I'd feel comfortable with either.

[timmy]

The only safety I feel comfortable with is one that positively locks the hammer or striker in such a way that no matter what is done to the weapon, it cannot go off. If the weapon (rifle, pistol, or shotgun) does not have a safety, then for me, it is not safe to have laying about or be carried about with loaded chambers. Half cock notches on hammers can break if the hammer is struck solidly, for example, if a handgun is dropped and falls on the hammer.

Bolt action rifles where the safety locks the striker from falling, like the original Mauser military models or the 1903 Springfield, are safe in my mind. Double action revolvers with a positive hammer block, such as a Colt Python (and many others) are safe. Ruger single action revolvers with a transfer bar mechanism ("single screw") are safe. The 1911 is safe. There are others, these are just examples.

Most lever guns, such as Winchesters and Marlins, are not safe to leave laying about loaded and half cocked, in my opinion. The newer ones have some kind of safety on the side of the receiver. I don't know how that works, as I've never examined one, so I cannot say positive or negative things about those.

[miroflex]

Personally and for practical reasons, I think shooter's points have a great deal of merit. For defending a farm, I think a .30-30 would be adequate. Power-wise, it is a bit more powerful than the 7.62x39. Over longer range, it has a round nose bullet that limits effective long range shooting with iron sights (say, beyond 200 yards), but the Winchester M1894 is compact, quick-handling, fairly powerful, widely available -- in short, a good choice.

One limitation might be mounting a scope, if you need one. A Marlin 336 mounts a scope easily, but I don't know if they are widely available in India.
In short, I think a Winchester M1894 is a very good choice. You certainly could do much worse.

Marlins are very scarce in India.

Regards.

[miroflex]

I have just been offered a double barrel hammerless rifle in ".450 bore" by a dealer on telephone. Let us see whether it is a .450-400 or some other older, obsolete calibre. Cartridges will be difficult to obtain if it is some bore other than .450-400.

Meanwhile, I would welcome suggestions from fellow members regarding suitable rifles for home defence or self defence that may be for sale.

Regards.

A ".450 bore" would not be a .450-400, as that is a .400 bore. The British designated cartridges by naming the basic case first, then the bore the case was necked to.

Two Rivers,

You and the dealer are right. It is indeed a .450 black powder rifle, chambered for the 3.50" cartridge. It is a hammer gun with rebounding locks and the opening lever under the trigger guard. It bears the name Manton & Co. and is in good working condition. What would its price be i.e. how much should I offer for it?

Cartridges for this rifle are being loaded by Kynoch but will be difficult to import as the calibre is not included in the Director General of Foreign Trade's list of cartridges the import of which is permitted by dealers.

I also saw a .256 (6.5 mm) calibre double barrel rifle marked Army & Navy and CSL London. It is nicely engraved and in immaculate condition with the bluing slightly worn off. How much is it worth?

Regards.

[mundaire]

IIRC Manton was not a manufacturer, merely a purveyor of sporting goods which they had contract manufactured and marked with their brand, ditto for Army Navy. Since these came from many makers I'd imagine that there would be a wider variation in quality than if they had been making their own products. Can you get the correct ammo for either rifle? If not they aren't worth anything - just expensive paperweights/ wall hangers IMHO!

A .450-400 black powder DBBL rifle? Would be interesting to own one if there was no limit on the number of guns one could own so long as you can source the cases, it would be easier to reload BP ammo as BLack powder and percussion caps are routinely sold by dealers for use in ML guns. On the other hand Nitro compound (smokeless powder) and primers are impossible to get in India!

[miroflex]

IIRC Manton was not a manufacturer, merely a purveyor of sporting goods which they had contract manufactured and marked with their brand, ditto for Army Navy. Since these came from many makers I'd imagine that there would be a wider variation in quality than if they had been making their own products. Can you get the correct ammo for either rifle? If not they aren't worth anything - just expensive paperweights/ wall hangers IMHO!

A .450-400 black powder DBBL rifle? Would be interesting to own one if there was no limit on the number of guns one could own so long as you can source the cases, it would be easier to reload BP ammo as BLack powder and percussion caps are routinely sold by dealers for use in ML guns. On the other hand Nitro compound (smokeless powder) and primers are impossible to get in India!

Mundaire,

You are of course right about Manton & Co and the Army & Navy Stores. Both retailed sporting goods made by other firms. Nevertheless, their stock was normally of very good quality.

6.5 mm ammunition is being loaded by Kynoch as is .450 bore of various types. The former is on the DGFT's list of cartriges whose import by dealers is permitted.

Regards.