Mommentum regarding ban on assault rifles

[Arien73]

Hello IFGNs,

Being based in washington dc i clearly see the momentum being build up against assault rifles and high capacity magazines, Dicks sports authority has temporarily lifted its sale of guns, Walmart is no more selling bushmaster.223 (rifle used in CT shooting), 1100 guns and rifles returned back to the seller under weekend buyback program in NJ, NRA being tight lipped facing major defections within the organisations regarding gun control, Barrack obama being all out offensive against Gun voilence, Republicans the major supporters of NRA finding themselves in the docket and some favouring gun control, and anger against NRA clearly leads to conclusion that this time Its over and there is going to be bill passed in favour of gun control.... but at the same time not pulling up sleeves against the gun lobby the white house has made clear that it respects 2nd amendment..i.e right to bear arms in America.

Well,,, being a responsible guns owner, i myself fully condemn the shooting of innocent and beutifull children ,, and consider the RKBA as fundamental right and is staunch advocate for it , fully support the OBAMA administration to take what ever neccessary to be done to prevent CT incidents... so that RKBA should not be misled , misused under the shelter of 2nd amendment....

sincerly..................Arein 73

[goodboy_mentor]

Problem is not assault rifles or high capacity magazines. The problem is in mind, kind of upbringing and social conditions.

[xl_target]

You're really serious?

The shooter broke something like 43 laws in the process of perpetrating this crime.
You really think more laws will stop the next mentally deficient cretin?
The only people who will obey any new laws, if they come to pass, will once again be the law abiding and not the criminals.

We don't condone politics on this board so lets keep any mention of politics and political parties out of this.

[Moin.]

But why should civilians have easy access to Assault weapons meant for the military.Can understand guns for sport shooting, hunting and self defense, but not assault weapons. What happens when every other household has a Ak 47 or an M16 ? What does this do to the law and order situation ? Education, upbringing is fine but what stops some nut case in going berserk with an AK. ?

Please don't crucify me here but I seriously think access to such weapons should be restricted to civilians.

Regards
Moin.

[BowMan]

Please don't crucify me here but I seriously think access to such weapons should be restricted to civilians.

As much as I love guns I have to agree with Moin. We must rise above our personal fondness for weapons and give such issues a serious thought.

[xl_target]

OK First of all, lets define an assault rifle.
An Assault rifle is a medium or smaller caliber select fire weapon. By definition a select fire weapon is capable of full auto fire. That means that multiple rounds can be fired with one pull of the trigger depending on the position of the fire selector lever.

It is possible to own a full auto rifle in the US but the requirements to be granted permission are very stringent. The rifles themselves are regulated and registered with the government. For a number of reasons, they are also very expensive. No atrocities have been committed with an actual full auto weapon in civilian hands since the passage of the gun control act in the 30's.

An AR 15 is not a select fire weapon. It is a semi automatic weapon and cannot be easily or lawfully converted to full auto. That means only a single round can be fired with one pull of the trigger. It is no different from any other semi automatic rifle. It just happens to look like the full auto M16 or M4 series weapons that are used by the US and NATO forces. The AR 15 is so popular is because the ammo for it is cheap, the gun is very modular, almost like a Lego set. Interchanging calibers, accessories, etc is incredibly easy with it. Many of them are used for target shooting and yes, also for hunting. It is called an Assault rifle by anti-gun organizations so they can make it sound worse than it is. By their definition, every semi automatic weapon is an assault rifle including my Ruger 10/22, the M1911 pistol or the Beretta semi-auto shotgun.

The standard version of what is called an AK47 that is sold in US gun stores is also semi auto only. If one wanted to buy a full auto legal rifle, we're talking of having to spend about $50,000 or more and having to comply with a whole host of additional regulations.

High capacity magazines? What is a high capacity magazine when the standard Browning High Power will hold 15 rounds, the Springfield XDM will hold 20? It takes a fraction of a second to switch out magazines for a trained person. However, it is a pain in the behind at the range. Limiting magazine capacity in a semi auto magazine fed rifle or pistol doesn't do a thing. The goal of the gun banners is to get rid of all guns. The semi's are just an easier target for now. Projecting that attitude, the Khukri is an Assault knife and so is the Bowie knife or the Bark River Bravo 1. After all it was/is used by soldiers.

You aren't going to stop evil by making new laws or banning things. Just ask the Aussies how much their crime has gone down after they banned all those guns. Look what happened in China. There were no guns involved but the victim count was close to the same. Blaming an inanimate object for crime is an easy fix but it doesn't fix anything.

Education, upbringing is fine but what stops some nut case in going berserk with an AK. ?

Being in an Institution for the mentally deficient?

If it was the inanimate object that was causing these incidents itself, how come with so many millions of weapons in the hands of US citizens, these kinds of incidents aren't happening continuously?

[xl_target]

I think some of you are under the mistaken impression that anyone can go into a store and buy an AR 15.

Let me tell you what it would take for the average person, say in my town, to do so.

I. One needs a permit to purchase an semi auto AK variant or an AR 15. This can only be issued by the Chief of Police or (if you live out in the country) the County Sheriff. At this time, they will run your records through the FBI and any Felony or some of a number of Misdemeanor crimes will disqualify you.
2. Or if you have a permit to carry, it acts as a permit to purchase. Keep in mind if you commit any of a large list of crimes, your permit will be pulled. To get a permit, you have to attend and pass the training class and pass another FBI background check.
3. Once you get a permit to purchase, you go to the store and select your rifle or pistol. Then you have to fill out a Form 4473 and once again your name will be run through the FBI database.
4. You now have to establish that you are a resident of the state where the sale is being made. Just your drivers licence will not suffice You have to produce documentary proof of residency.

If you pass all this, then you will be allowed to make your purchase. This procedure is followed for every gun purchase you make, even a .22 LR.

The perpetrator of the crime in CT was not of legal age (21) to purchase or possess any of the weapons he had on him. CT also has a bunch of firearms laws that are stricter than most other states. Keep in mind that none of those laws stopped him.
They were stolen from his parent who he killed.

In Connecticut, the killer – Adam Lanza, 20 – broke at several state laws in committing his heinous crime, though not all of them were gun-related.
First, Connecticut state law requires residents to be 21 years old in order to possess a handgun; Lanza was 20. Second, you have to have a permit in order to carry a handgun on your person in the state; Lanza did not have a permit. Third, “it is unlawful in Connecticut to possess a firearm on public or private elementary or secondary school property, a statute Lanza clearly ignored,” WorldNetDaily reported.
Lanza may have committed another violation as well. If it’s learned that Lanza did indeed possess a Bushmaster .223 caliber weapon that resembled an M-16, he will have violated a state law prohibiting possession of an “assault weapon.”

Also, residents of Newtown and the state of Connecticut are forbidden from bringing a gun on school grounds; Lanza walked right through that rule (though we ought to have a discussion, as Natural News editor Mike Adams has brought up, about allowing qualified teachers to be armed).
It’s important to note as well that Lanza did not actually own any of the weapons he used; he stole them from his mother. Furthermore, Lanza, according to reports, broke into the Sandy Hook Elementary School to commit his heinous murders – another legal violation.
Not to mention the multiple acts of murders he committed.
What’s clear that despite a number of gun-related and non-gun related statutes on the books in Connecticut that were aimed at preventing precisely the crimes committed by Lanza, he committed them anyway. So how will more gun control laws help?

http://www.prisonplanet.com/adam-lanzas ... inals.html

So Bowman and Moin, do you really think a few more laws (or a whole bunch more) would have stopped him?

[Moin.]

Xl, may be it's my ignorance on the subject and on guns in general. I am referring to fire arms that can spray lead at 100's of round per minute, large capacity magazines etc. I would assume it would be easier to stop a nut with a shot gun or pistol than even a semi auto with a high capcacity magazine that he keeps on shooting with, even easier to stop someone with a Khukri or a similar combat knife. These comparisons don't really apply. If in animate objects are not be be blamed, why can't someone buy a tank for that matter, it would only take a nut case to drive it aroud time and bring down an entire neighbourhood or a Barrett 50 Caliber rifle that some can shoot accurately for hundereds of yards away. UK and may such countries do have stricter laws and such unfortunate incidents dont happen there.

And if criminals have automatic weapons arming civilian with them is not a solution, will only turn the country into the wild west.

[xl_target]

I am referring to fire arms that can spray lead at 100's of round per minute,

That is not what he used here. He did not have access to any weapons that could spray lead at 100's of rounds per minute. What he had was a semi-automatic rifle and two semi auto pistols. The Bushmaster .223 caliber rifle that he used is an AR 15 variant. He also had a SIG pistol on him. I've owned several of them for many years but have never killed a living thing with them. Many members on this board have shot SIG's and haven't done anything but perforate paper with them.



Lets talk about the UK, shall we? If you don't think the UK has violent crime, you should read this. It is an article from 2009 and crime has only gone up from there.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... urope.html

or this (also from 2009)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... e-low.html

Take a look at the detection rate for violent crime in the UK. 47 out of a reported 903,993!
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/arc ... 72195a.swf

All they have done is removed the ability of normal people to defend themselves. The criminals can only rub their hand together in glee.

Then there is this:

Violent crimes such as assault and domestic attacks are routinely being wrongly ignored by the police rather than investigated, a report revealed today.

The police inspectorate found that one in three decisions to record a violent incident as “no crime” were wrong. If the findings, based on a small sample, are repeated across England and Wales it would mean that an estimated 5,000 violent offences a year are being wrongly dismissed.

Denis O’Connor, the chief inspector of constabulary, said: “It’s a very high error rate on a small sample. For us, as the regulator, it’s a matter of concern.”

Of the 479 incidents that Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary (HMIC) examined, 35.7 per cent of the decisions were found to be wrong.

The report’s findings raise concerns that officers are under pressure to dismiss some crimes in order to make their forces appear better and to meet government targets.

So one shouldn't even bring up the UK when trying to show low crime trends. Just google "violent crime in the UK".

[winnie_the_pooh]

Moin,

Your field of interest is obviously sharp edged tools.Do try to educate yourself on firearms as well.

[xl_target]

These comparisons don't really apply. If in animate objects are not be be blamed, why can't someone buy a tank for that matter, it would only take a nut case to drive it aroud time and bring down an entire neighbourhood or a Barrett 50 Caliber rifle that some can shoot accurately for hundereds of yards away.

OK, there are plenty of people who own tanks in the US and even more civilians who own Barrett 50 cal rifles. Thousands, in fact.
So why do you think they don't drive around crushing neighborhoods or shoot people from hundres of yards away. Are you saying that if you or I possessed either of these weapons, we would drive around and bring down entire neighborhoods or shoot people from hundreds of yards away?

That is actually a typical argument. People will say that all you have to do is possess this or that weapon and you will become a mass murderer. That is why I brought up the Khukri as an example.

Now lets try to look at this logically. Significantly more people get killed in the US by automobiles, baseball bats and by drowning than compared to firearms. But it would be silly to ban cars, baseball and swimming pools, wouldn't it? Demonizing the object used rather than the person that used the object is illogical and doesn't get to the root of the problem. It also wont prevent it from happening again. Every time something like this happens, they ban more objects to no effect.

How did Einstein put it?

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein

Moin and Bowman,
I'm not trying to "crucify" or even belittle you. My tone is level with no anger or sarcasm (even though it might appear so).
I'm trying to get you to look logically at the issues and the supposed solutions and trying to point out that the solution that is being advocated is incorrect. Do I have the prefect solution? No. However, the steps that some people want to take won't solve anything.

[essdee1972]

XL, thanks for the response. Especially the part about the rules governing gun possession in the US. Most people here think you just need to walk into Walmart, plonk down the cash, and walk out with a WMD !!! Funnily enough, even some of my friends who are the US for 5, 10, or more years think the same !!!

Cars have not been used as killing weapons (unless you count car bombs), but planes have been, in the one of the worst mass murders in history. So have we banned planes?

All the very best for your 2nd Amendment rights. That's the only reason I would ever want to migrate to the US !

[Moin.]

Thanks Xl, I was just trying to present a layman's opinion on this purely from a law and order situation and not specific to the CT shootings. I would assume someone with a semi automatic high capacity magzine rifle would be different to control by the police than someone with a shotgun or a rifle and are more lethal weapons compared to knives or baseball bats with respect to the damage that can be done to a large number of people in a short amount of time. It's heart wrenching that something so unfortunate should ever happen to some parent what happened in CT or Virginia Tech. If that pyscho would have gone about with a baseball bat or a knife maybe could have been controlled or maybe lesser lives would have been lost. Like WTP said i am clueless about this subject and only presented my layman opinion. But thank you, like always you have given a lot of reading material. I will go through this after office.

Thanks.
Moin.

[YogiBear]

Aloha,

Here's something for those people who think highly of Britain being a "safe" place

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... a-U-S.html

[snIPer]

Civilians do not need to have assault rifles.
Just what is the need for such a high rate of fire power?? Other weapons will suffice for hunting / self defense.
/S