Lever Action or Double Rifle?

[miroflex]

Dear XL_Target,

Thank you very much for your observations concerning the use of lever action weapons while lying prone on the ground. You are right in what you say and I stand corrected to that extent.

it is certainly possible to turn a lever action arm sideways and work the lever horizontally instead of vertically if one is lying close to the ground. This is a difficult but not impossible task.

Regards.

[miroflex]

Which will be a better type of action for purposes of home defence?

Miroflex, What you want to use for self-defence is totally different from what are otherwise appropriate weapons to get yourself out of a tight spot or potentially life-threatening situation. Large caliber rifles have the nasty habit of making one hell of a bang and there are very real possibilities of some collateral damage after the primary threat is eliminated or, should I say, given the time to think twice!

The big bang has the advantage of having a deterrent effect on potential assailants. The first sentence, in italics, is not very clear to me. Could you please elaborate?

There are fewer more effective deterrents than the gaping maw of a shotgun, and everyone knows what the business end of one looks like, and when confronted, your opponent is sure to have a sudden change of heart and legging it whilst thinking about pressing issues that would need urgent attention, such as world peace!

I will consider the option of buying a shotgun. I agree that it is a very effective weapon at short ranges.

[z375]

Miroflex, What you want to use for self-defence is totally different from what are otherwise appropriate weapons to get yourself out of a tight spot or potentially life-threatening situation.

What I meant in simply, was that a .405 double or a lever-action rifle are nice little sticks to have around and may well be used in a self-defence scenario, but they wont quite fit the bill for the typical firearms otherwise used for these situations, in my opinion, a firearm intended purely for self-defence should be short, handy, maneuverable in enclosed spaces and should enable the user to rapidly engage when a life-threatening situation is at hand, then you will also consider issues such as ammo availability, fresh 12ga ammo, in any shot size will never usually be a problem to find, can't say the same for the .405 or any other rifle caliber, and a "CLICK" is the last sound you want to hear when someone is coming at you with a knife or lobbing lead in your direction. I've recently had a whale of a time finding a sizable quantity of .30-06 ammo, so there's your sign!

There are fewer more effective deterrents than the gaping maw of a shotgun, and everyone knows what the business end of one looks like, and when confronted, your opponent is sure to have a sudden change of heart and legging it whilst thinking about pressing issues that would need urgent attention, such as world peace!

I will consider the option of buying a shotgun. I agree that it is a very effective weapon at short ranges.

1+ on that choice

[winnie_the_pooh]

z375,

If I have 20-30 acres to defend,I would be comfortable with a rifle.In fact i would consider a shotgun to be a poor choice in such a situation.You are obviously looking at an urban scenario. Self defence does not start when you can smell the fellows breath.As far as over penetration is concerned,while a concern in a built up area,it is less so if you are surrounded by open fields.Also,if you are called to defend your life or property against a mob,it may be a welcome thing.Two for the price of one

[miroflex]

z375,

If I have 20-30 acres to defend,I would be comfortable with a rifle.In fact i would consider a shotgun to be a poor choice in such a situation.You are obviously looking at an urban scenario. Self defence does not start when you can smell the fellows breath.As far as over penetration is concerned,while a concern in a built up area,it is less so if you are surrounded by open fields.Also,if you are called to defend your life or property against a mob,it may be a welcome thing.Two for the price of one

Thank you for your comments Winnie. You have echoed some of my concerns about defending a largish area from intruders. Vikram had also raised this issue in his posts on this thread.

I had initially started this thread to seek opinions on buying a lever action or a double rifle. In their posts, some of the members questioned my choice of calibre viz. .405 Winchester while others raised doubts about the suitability of the type of weapon I was planning to buy i.e. a rifle.

The majority opinion seems to favour the double rifle over the lever action Winchester Model 1895. The latter is considered heavy, slow in action as well as slow to reload. A formidable list of shortcomings. Some members, including Timmy, favour a Model 1894 in .30-30 calibre. Others feel that the IOF .30-06 wins hands down on all counts, specially accuracy.

I would still welcome opinions and suggestions.

Regards.

[z375]

z375,

If I have 20-30 acres to defend,I would be comfortable with a rifle.In fact i would consider a shotgun to be a poor choice in such a situation.You are obviously looking at an urban scenario. Self defence does not start when you can smell the fellows breath.As far as over penetration is concerned,while a concern in a built up area,it is less so if you are surrounded by open fields.Also,if you are called to defend your life or property against a mob,it may be a welcome thing.Two for the price of one

I'd be more comfortable with a rifle too, albeit I've never owned a shotgun, nor has my family from my grandpa's time, I would still consider the 'deterrent' factor while using one to save my life, and here the shotgun will win over a rifle by a landslide, whether the scenario is urban or outdoor, a few well-spread number ones or fours from a 12ga will definitely get some attention, while still keeping him breathing (if that may be considered a good thing) and should have your attacker thinking more than twice about why messing with you was such a bad idea! Also, bear in mind what legality will ensue should you end up making a basketball-size cavity through the chest of your foe, or if you blow his head off. The 20-30 acres and a shovel will come in handy to clean up that mess then

My point here is to effectively deter, unless of course you have no other choice but to take someone down. Just my 0.2 cents.

[miroflex]

sir rivers, thank you for your valuable inputs about the loading procedure , it does sound rather cumbersome, does it not? However, the collateral damage being reffered to here, is, i believe, with respect to the penetration power of the .405, and not the diameter of the entry/exit wound. Could you please provide us with any insights about the same? Thank you.

Penetration depends on the weight in relation to diameter, i.e. sectional density of the bullet, all other factors being equal. Compared to other big game cartridges of similar caliber, the bullet of the .405 being light, penetration will be less. With a bullet comparable to a 168 grain caliber .30 bullet in weight, and at the same velocity, its penetration will also be the same as that of a .30-30. I cannot come up with any reason why any one would credit the .405 with great penetration.

Thank you for correcting members' concerns about .405 bullets penetrating deeply and going through brick and cement walls.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, there are valid reasons why I am attracted to a heavier rather than a lighter bore.

One reason why I am inclined towards the .405 is that I may be called upon to deal with a marauding wild boar or some other equally large animal for which a .30-30 may be on the lighter side. Another aspect I have to deal with is that most .30-30s available on the market have seen heavier use than comparable .405s.

Regards.

[miroflex]

Which will be a better type of action for purposes of home defence?

Could you tell us something more about your threat perception and terrain conditions? Maybe the discussion should not have started without this information.

I have elaborated this aspect in some of my posts subsequent to the opening one.

But then there are certain cartridges that are usually mated to certain actions. For example the mention of a .375 Flanged Magnum rifle will automatically evoke a picture of a English Double Rifle but a .357 Belted Magnum mostly implies a Bolt action rifle (preferably Mauser action).

The .450-400 is primarily a double barrel rifle cartridge yet I have seen bolt action SBBL rifles chambered for it.

To me the .405 Win is always a very American round because of its strong association with Theodore Roosevelt and his African Safari days and for this reason a 1895 Winchester Lever Action Rifle is what naturally comes to my imagination. An American cartridge in an English double rifle; good way to sacrilege.

Double barrel rifles were also made in continental countries including Belgium, France and Germany.

However unless you are a collector purchase decisions should not be made by romancing with imagery but should be based on pros and cons of the decision evaluated in the present times.

I agree.

Just my humble opinion though.

Regards

[miroflex]

I had started this thread to resolve the doubt in my mind in choosing between a double and a lever action rifle, both in calibre .405 Winchester. From a discussion of the rival merits of the lever action and the double rifle the debate widened into the choice of calibre. Most members felt that .405 was an unsuitable calibre for home defence, being much too powerful for the purpose. Personally, I would have preferred to buy a .33 WCF that was offered to me, were it not for the fact that no factory is loading ammunition for it. I am also thinking of acquiring my grandfather's .44 WCF, presently in storage with a dealer after my grandfather passed away.

Looking at lever action rifles that I have viewed recently, the .33 Winchester seems to be as dead as a dodo, unless one has access to suitable brass and reloading supplies and equipment. Ammunition for the .250-3000 Savage and the .300 Savage is being factory loaded but is not on the Director General of Foreign Trade's list of cartridges which are allowed to be imported by dealers. The .30-30 and .32-40 are, however, on that list and are worth considering as viable long term calibres. The .30-30 is of course by far the most popular cartridge out of all those mentioned above.

Meanwhile I have my old standby, the IOF .315. I also have the option of selling it and buying an IOF .30-06, which has the reputation of being far more accurate. It also offers the greatest choice of cartridges of all centre fire rifles available in India. One is of course heavily subsidising the Indian Ordnance Factories Board in buying a rifle worth not more than $ 400 for $ 2000.

I am also unsure of the wisdom of fitting a telescopic sight to a rifle meant for home defence and invite members' views on the subject. Personally, I prefer open sights for quick pointing and shooting as they offer an unobstructed view of the target and the background.

Regards.

[Safarigent]

Red dot sights

[BowMan]

I am also unsure of the wisdom of fitting a telescopic sight to a rifle meant for home defence and invite members' views on the subject. Personally, I prefer open sights for quick pointing and shooting as they offer an unobstructed view of the target and the background.

Agree.

[Vikram]

One is of course heavily subsidising the Indian Ordnance Factories Board in buying a rifle worth not more than $ 400 for $ 2000.

I have not used one or even seen one. But, as it is indeed a close copy of the Sauer-202 and accurate as demonstrated by Zubin et al, the price you pay is actually a good bit less than what you pay in the international market. Of course, it is not as nicely finished as the original Sauer-202.


Best-
Vikram

[miroflex]

Red dot sights

Thanks. I've seen pictures of them but do not know where they are available, how much they cost and how are they installed and used. I'd be grateful for more information.

Regards.

[TwoRivers]

Red dot sights

Thanks. I've seen pictures of them but do not know where they are available, how much they cost and how are they installed and used. I'd be grateful for more information.

Regards.

They commonly carry mounts for a Weaver style base. The cost runs from less than US$ 50 to several hundred. One drawback, without batteries you have no sight. A low power variable scope, 1.5 - 4.5X, would not be the worst choice for your purpose. Neither a M1895, nor a double, would be suitable for fitting with a scope.

The .32-40 cartridge is barely breathing. Winchester only loads it occasionally. A Martini, or an M1894 Winchester could easily be rechambered to .32 Winchester Special, but that cartridge is not readily found in India, either. That particular size Martini action is my favorite of the Martinis, by the way.

Regards.

[winnie_the_pooh]

Microflex,

For red dot sights,if you are on a budget look up Ultradot.If you can spend a bit more then buy the Aimpoint Micro H1 or the Docter Red Dot sight .DO NOT try to bring in a Trijicon dual power sight. What ever you get,just ensure that you get one that fits on to a weaver type base.Picatinny bases are hard to find in India.