Lever Action or Double Rifle?

[miroflex]

While the said calibre or type of rifle would not be my choice for home defence, we need to remember here that miroflex is not a novice and has owned and shot a fair share rifles. I do think that he knows what he is doing or at least has given considerable thought to it.

We are all assuming here that he lives in a cramped urban environment and in a house whose walls are built with cardboard like in the West. He could be living in a fairly large independent house or a farm house or a house detached from the city/town/village etc.

Best-
Vikram

You are right on all counts Vikram.

I have also been considering the .30-30 or .250-3000 calibres as lever as well as bolt action rifles for these are available for prices which are not too high. Cartridges for the former are available and for the latter with some difficulty. The .405 Winchester is a cartridge which is easily imported and available in a fresh condition and for prices which are expensive but not unreasonably so. Rifles chambered for it are more reasonably priced than those in 7 mm, .30-06, 8 mm etc.

The rifle is meant for home defence on an isolated farm surrounded by reserve forests.

All the best.

[TwoRivers]

That's what i read, written by men who had used them.Apparently there is nothing like a smooth repeater in a medium caliber, but in larger calibers there might be some difficulty with the action as the rifle ages.
Microflex himself said the action is sticky.That is why.

"Aging" does not affect rifle actions, regardless of type. If an action is sticky, it's most like due to dried up oil and dust. Having said that, the Winchester M1895 is probably, due to its size, the least "slick" of the Browning designed lever actions by Winchester. The M94/M95 type action is not as smooth as the M86/M92, and M73, type actions to begin with.

[TwoRivers]

sir rivers, thank you for your valuable inputs about the loading procedure , it does sound rather cumbersome, does it not? However, the collateral damage being reffered to here, is, i believe, with respect to the penetration power of the .405, and not the diameter of the entry/exit wound. Could you please provide us with any insights about the same? Thank you.

Penetration depends on the weight in relation to diameter, i.e. sectional density of the bullet, all other factors being equal. Compared to other big game cartridges of similar caliber, the bullet of the .405 being light, penetration will be less. With a bullet comparable to a 168 grain caliber .30 bullet in weight, and at the same velocity, its penetration will also be the same as that of a .30-30. I cannot come up with any reason why any one would credit the .405 with great penetration.

[timmy]

If you will study this picture, you will see what can stick and why. The lever splits into two thin blade like sections, which rub the sides of the magazine on the inner surfaces and rub the insides of the receiver on the outer surfaces. If these surfaces have dirt, dried grease, etc, the action will be sticky and hard to operate. If they are clean, the action is pretty slick, though with a long throw. It is not as easy to operate as easy to operate a M1892 or M1886, and that is understandable when you look at the mechanism. But an M1895 should operate very smoothly, nonetheless.

http://www.rarewinchesters.com/images/E ... 20View.jpg

[miroflex]

I have owned a M1895 Winchester lever action (in .30-40, not .405) and make the observation that the m1895 action is big and not particularly quick to operate. As with any Browning design, it is smooth and reliable (if it is already in good working order) but in a home defense situation, I wonder whether you are going to have the opportunity to use the 4 round capacity.

Also, it is a heavy action.

The double rifle you are being offered -- if I am reading your post correctly, it is also in .405. It will be much quicker to fire a second shot, should you need it.

With the Winchesters, your only safety will be to leave the chamber empty or, if you have a round in the chamber, leave the hammer on half-cock. That's not a particularly ideal situation. The double rifle -- is it hammerless? If not, you can thumb the hammers back to bring it to ready, but if not, do you want to leave the hammers cocked all of the time?

My point here is that neither choice may have a good option for keeping loaded, but safe.

As you know, the .405 is going to plow through half of the town before the bullet is stopped, so I hope you have a good backstop if you have to use the thing.

Timmy, all your points are well taken and conceded.

The multiple round capability of the Model 1895 may not confer any advantage over the two round capability of the double barrel if the situation does not require or allow more than two shots to be fired.

The difficulty of working a lever action very quickly is also a valid area of concern. If the chamber is kept empty for reasons of safety it may take time even to fire the first shot.

The above concern would apply even to the double rifle which, being hammerless, may have to be kept unloaded, again for reasons of safety. It would take time to open the breech, insert the cartridges and close the breech.

Regards.

[timmy]

Miroflex, yes sir, I think you are right: each has its own trade offs.

Please don't get me wrong: I love the M1895. I love almost everything Browning designed, but the M1895 is one of the mo complex and intriguing guns he designed. But it is a long action, and you will see that there's a long throw to the lever when firing off a number of rounds. The Tsarists bought them because they needed guns, and the fact that the M1895 held up under that sort of use speaks very well for it. But that sort of trench warfare isn't quite the same as what you are looking to do.

On the other hand, the double has issues, as well. I've never owned a double rifle. I have a double hammerless shotgun and keep it stored with snapcaps, so that the hammers are not cocked all the time. Maybe that's silly of me. The gun is quite old and was probably stored for many decades with cocked hammers. Besides, storing a double empty or with snap caps is not the sort of thing that makes for a quick, ready defense weapon. And if it is kept loaded and cocked, the safety on mine is certainly not safe. The double you are looking at may not have that problem. The half cock on the Winchester would be preferable to some double safeties that prevent an accidental firing of a cocked gun, I think.

Yes, these two choices are not to be rejected immediately, but they aren't ideal.

A Winchester M1894 in .30-30 is a lot lighter and handier. I don't know how easy it is to get .30-30 in India, but it seems to be fairly available world wide.

I can see why you are scratching your head over this.

[miroflex]

The win causes collateral damage if used in the confines of a home.The double would as said above, tear up much else besides the intended target.I would not trust an old lever action in that caliber to be an effective choice for home defense either.Too many things that might go wrong.Double over the lever action.I have read lever actions tend to weaken with age.

Thank you for your comments Skyman.

The issue of collateral damage is a common factor to all the rifles, since all of them are in the same calibre .405 Winchester.

It is overuse and/or misuse that weakens an action rather than age as such. One of the Model 1895s is described by the dealer as being in 98 per cent condition. If that is so, the action certainly cannot be described as weak.

The double rifle is so worn on the outside that the makers name is almost indecipherable. The action is however nice and tight. The dealer says that the rifle came to him in this condition and he has not tightened the action. This indicates that the rifle is worn from being carried around rather than from being fired.

Regards.

[mundaire]

A lot of .30-30 ammo being sold in India comes loaded with pointed tip bullets, not a particularly good idea to use this ammo in a tubular magazine under lever.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[TwoRivers]

A lot of .30-30 ammo being sold in India comes loaded with pointed tip bullets, not a particularly good idea to use this ammo in a tubular magazine under lever.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

Hard to believe that any manufacturer would put .30-30 ammo on the market loaded with a pointed bullet. With a rather blunt rounded lead nose (Remington),or a definite flat one, but never pointed. What make?

Cheers.

[mundaire]

Hard to believe that any manufacturer would put .30-30 ammo on the market loaded with a pointed bullet. With a rather blunt rounded lead nose (Remington),or a definite flat one, but never pointed. What make?

Cheers.

IIRC something of the sort was posted here 3-4 years back, the maker was Hornady I think... can't recall the exact details off hand.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[miroflex]

It may have to be used against a mob or a gang of dacoits in open country on an agricultural farm. I may have to open fire from an upper storey verandah or an open rooftop to drive away intruders who may be armed. I do not envisage its use indoors.

I have some experience of rifle shooting although less than I have of revolver shooting.

The underlevers are Winchester Model 1895s with five round magazines. I agree that a 'sticky' action can disrupt my timing/ concentration / peace of mind. I found the action of the double barrel rifle rather stiff although quite positive.

I had apparently misunderstood your requirements for this rifle.
If it is to be used as you say above, what is wrong with the good old .30-06?

While I have no personal experience with the IOF .30-06, I have shot the cartridge and quite like it. Other members here have stated that the IOF rifle is reliable and accurate.
A scoped .30-06 would be fine for a perimeter of several hundred yards and it would be cheaper than a lot of other rifles. Also the ammunition should be easily available and cheaper than something more exotic.

It can also be shot standing or prone with no problems. As Two Rivers points out, the loading procedure of the lever might be questionable under stress while the .30-06 should have no such issue.

Imported .30-06 rifles are quite expensive in India, costing upwards of $ 6,000. The IOF .30-06 rifle is less expensive at around $ 2,000. It has the reputation of being accurate but till recently was handicapped by being available with a 3 round magazine only. A 5 round magazine is stated to have become available recently from IOF. A dealer showed me what he claimed was a 7 round magazine, also by IOF.

I have grown up with the better workmanship and finish of American, British, Canadian and German weapons and find IOF products rather crude in this regard. I would like to mention that I own an IOF .315 rifle and am considering the purchase of an IOF .22 revolver to replace a .32 that was stolen recently. So I am not totally averse to the IOF make. I may exchange my IOF .315 with an IOF .30-06.

I agree that bolt action weapons can be conveniently reloaded and fired from a standing, kneeling or prone position. Reloading them is also generally straightforward.

Regards.

[miroflex]

Hello all,

Yesterday I had a first look at one of the three Model 1895 Winchesters that have been offered for sale. The action is very nice and smooth with a crisp trigger pull and let off. The metalwork is in a very clean condition with the Winchester name engraved sharply and not rubbed off at all. The action also shows light to medium wear with no hint of looseness or sloppiness.

The rifling also seemed to be in good condition. The woodwork is, however, in a rather battered condition as if it has been carried around roughly and handled carelessly. I noticed a few small chips and indentations in the stock. Overall it is a serviceable weapon but not very good looking.

I will post impressions about the other two Model 1895s when I have seen them. I will have to travel quite a bit to do so.

Regards.

[Skyman]

Microfelx, If the guns are in good condition and you are okay with the caliber, you can certainly get one of the lever actions.Your experience will probably negate any fumbling.Just make sure the recoil does not cause problems.A 30-30 would be a MUCH better option, with medium recoil and easier handling.Whatever you choose, i am sure you won't make any mistakes.

[miroflex]

Skyman,

Thank you for your support. I have also been offered a 'thutty thutty', again a lever action Winchester. Cartridges in this calibre are being imported into India. It is an old standby calibre for deer sized game at medium ranges. It just seems to lack the cachet of the .405. I'll think over your advice before coming to a decision.

Regards.

[Raptor]

Skyman,
It just seems to lack the cachet of the .405. I'll think over your advice before coming to a decision.

Regards.

Sir could you please explain ?
Regards