Lever Action or Double Rifle?

[xl_target]

It may have to be used against a mob or a gang of dacoits in open country on an agricultural farm. I may have to open fire from an upper storey verandah or an open rooftop to drive away intruders who may be armed. I do not envisage its use indoors.

I have some experience of rifle shooting although less than I have of revolver shooting.

The underlevers are Winchester Model 1895s with five round magazines. I agree that a 'sticky' action can disrupt my timing/ concentration / peace of mind. I found the action of the double barrel rifle rather stiff although quite positive.

I had apparently misunderstood your requirements for this rifle.
If it is to be used as you say above, what is wrong with the good old .30-06?

While I have no personal experience with the IOF .30-06, I have shot the cartridge and quite like it. Other members here have stated that the IOF rifle is reliable and accurate.
A scoped .30-06 would be fine for a perimeter of several hundred yards and it would be cheaper than a lot of other rifles. Also the ammunition should be easily available and cheaper than something more exotic.

It can also be shot standing or prone with no problems. As Two Rivers points out, the loading procedure of the lever might be questionable under stress while the .30-06 should have no such issue.

[mundaire]

The IOF .30-06 sells for between 85K-100K, depending on where you buy it. Except for the final finish on the product and a bit of drop @ heel on the stock, there is nothing wrong with the product.

It shoots very well, right out of the box. So far I've shot 3 different IOF .30-06 rifles (belonging to 3 different friend's, all of whom are members here) and they are very accurate rifles. I'm betting that a factory fresh IOF .30 will outshoot any of the rifles mentioned on this thread!

If you are purchasing for 'pure desire' (as is often the case with firearm enthusiasts), then there is little that anyone here can say that will sway you either way... you've probably already made up your mind - in your heart!

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[Raptor]

I would take neither.The double would put down a security bot, and the lever action......wouldn't stake my safety on the gun.

I'm not very clear about your remarks. What is a security bot? Why the antipathy to lever actions? Perhaps you prefer bolt actions.

Regards.

i believe the gentleman's aversion to underlevers stems from his choice of reading material. Although it is quite interesting how putting down a 'security bot'(whatever alien life form that may be!)is held against the DB! Now i am not a proponent of the underlever either but if that is the only gun i have at my disposal then instead of fretting about its inherent shortcomings i'd rather work with it to hone my skills further, till i achieve sufficient proficiency. But that is just what I would do....can't speak for anyone else .[/quote]

Raptor, it might well be that "the gentleman" in question bases his advice and views on his choice of reading material, or perhaps he has some experience that he's relying upon -- I really don't kow.

Your observation raises a related question in my mind: upon what do you base your views and advice on this matter?[/quote]
sir timmy allow me to expatiate further
1.my comments about sir skyman's reaction is based one of his posts above wherein he mentions that his information is based on what he has read. Apparently his reading material suggested that underlevers are somewhat problematic. I was merely pointing that out.
2. My second point is based on sir two rivers' contribution to the post. As he explains loading the underlever under stress is complicated.
3.my third point about acquiring proficiency with any gun i have is based on my personal experience with .308 L1A1 and 1A1. You see I didn't have the privilege of getting my hands on the myriad civilian models and therefore had to work upon improving my skills with whatever the 'powers that be' saw fit to bestow upon us. As sir Vikram has often pointed out any gun is better than no gun. Hence, logic suggests that it is better to master the weapon you have.
4. A DB, if it can put down/take out a bot(security or otherwise), seems like a formidable weapon to me and as such I ask you , if it should be taken out of the reckoning without anything more than a cursory examination.
5. My suggestions on tactics are drawn from what little i remember from my training days coupledwith common sense. Of course I might also add that in spite of my present situation I remain an avid student of battle doctrines of various infantries and special forces.of course your next question might well be about my military expertise and unit and so forth. In which case would it suffice to say that i am not associated with any military outfit and have not been for the last 14 years? I'm sure you will agree that tactics are not the sole province of only those who wear a uniform, a lesson the Boers taught rather well to the british regulars.

[timmy]

Raptor:

Well, that's fine. As I said in my earlier post in this thread, I had a Winchester M1895 for many years and fired many rounds through it. I loaded the magazine many times with rimmed .30-40 cartridges and never once had a problem with any sort of a jam. Frankly, in those days, I never even considered the possibility of the rims locking over each other. Such an assumption that things would always work is quite consistent with any John M Browning design, and I never once encountered the problem, either at the range or in the field.

I'm sure that an M1895 would work just as reliably for Miroflex.

I guess I'm not seeing your avid student pastime differing much with skyman's study of whatever he reads. So would I then be correct that your challenge to his views is based on the relevance of your old squad tactics training to fending off some dacoits from raiding a farm? Just asking...

[Raptor]

lol! Why sir timmy i was not challenging sir skyman's post, i was defending it!this has to be the funniest thing in a while. While my 'squad training' ,as you put it, did not train me to defend a farmhouse from a band of dacoits, i believe they did cover 'permiter defense'. Hence the lights. Falls under the category of 'depriving the enemy of sensory advantages' of course i have anglacized the terminology a bit.

[Skyman]

I should explain.The security bot was a Terminator 2 reference.In the present, they are basically mobile platforms with cameras and possibly some armament.

I most certainly am not averse to underlevers.In fact, i would like to try and chamber the next round the way Arnie did in the movie.As i said earlier, a well maintained lever action is a joy to shoot.In this country, i doubt the required pampering would have been bestowed upon the gun.A double would have probably seen more care than a lever action.But nothing is quite certain.Besides, Microflex did mention something about the action.

Let me put it this way - An M16 is offered for sale here.Now i know the gun needs proper maintenance, else it will not function as smoothly as it should.Is it a good gun? Yes.Will i trust it has been well maintained? Probably not in this country.

If some one offered an AK on the other hand, i will trust some basic maintenance has been done to a gun which is seen more in the country.Does this make sense?

Thanks.

[timmy]

Well, OK, then! Just as long as everyone's happy!

[z375]

I'm betting that a factory fresh IOF .30 will outshoot any of the rifles mentioned on this thread!

In that case, that's money in the bank my friend!

[hvj1]

Miroflex,
Read the last three pages, pondered upon the very erudite comments from several worthies. But IMHO that are we not missing a major point here???
You Sir, are 59 years old, unless you have the physique and dispositon of the Late John Wayne, then yes you could easily handle your .405s (doesnt matter which, DB or LAR) one in either hand. So that would I suppose put an end to the discussion, As Dirty Harry would say, Go ahead Punk, make my day! Then you could let go with the DB, throw it aside then go bang bang bang with the LAR. And in case there are a still a few standing, then why? You can wade in and mow the rest using either the DB or the LAR like a club. Ah yes we can probably have another discussion here on which rifle would lends itself to be a more efficient club, the LAR or the DB?
With all due respects Sir, at 59 I would take up Z375's extremely sage advice and go for the barra bore double nalli, the shorter the barrel the better, beats both your .405, any day from all angles, cheap ammo, availability, easier to handle, devastating effect and low incidental fallout and or collateral damage.
Sir, I am 51 years old and my cowboy dreams have lost their sheen so nowadays my choice veers simply towards whatever is the most practical. It is my humble opinion and no way does it cast any doubt on your ability to handle .405s.
Best Regards

[dev]

I'm betting that a factory fresh IOF .30 will outshoot any of the rifles mentioned on this thread!

[ Image ]

[ Image ]

In that case, that's money in the bank my friend!

Wow, how far is that more than 100m? Amazing rifle, course you have done a load of work on it.
Bet this one will win the Big Bore.

Dev

[tranter]

Do you reload? I would concider the lever action with down loaded ammunition. You can fire from the hip but the real defence would be the sound of an underlever being cocked an unmistakable sound with a lot of menace that should deter most undesirables

[miroflex]

First off, "collateral damage" from the .405 , except for a bigger hole, would be equal to that of a .30-30. A 300 grain bullet of .412" diameter has the same sectional density as a .308" 168 grain bullet. At 2200 fps the .405 mirrors the .30-30 in penetration and trajectory. A .30-06 would give that same bullet 2800+ fps. Muzzle blast would also be less than a .30-06 will give.

One thing to consider would be the slow loading of the 1895's magazine with rimmed cartridges. After the first one, cartridges have to be inserted vertically, slid back, and then rotated to horizontal and pressed down, to prevent rim over rim stoppages. To reload the magazine of a 1895 Winchester quickly, and under stress, takes a lot of practice. (That's why mine is built on an action originally chambered in .30-03, and takes a belted .405 wildcat.) The ones made for Russia during WWI had a magazine interuptor like the Russian M1891 rifle. And yes, with her standard stock, she'll kick like a mule. At both ends. A good cartridge to adjust a bear's attitude towards you or your horse.

Well, a .405 would not be my first choice for home defense. But I'd pick the double over the Model 1895, recovery for a second shot would be much quicker.

Thank you very much for your valuable insights, Two Rivers.

I appreciate your assessment about the slow reloading of a Model 1895s magazine. After firing five rounds, assuming that the chamber is kept empty, one will have to spend a lot of time and be careful in reloading.

I also have the option of a .30-30 Winchester and a .250-3000 Savage, again both in lever action. A .250-3000 Savage is also available in bolt action. As is a .404 Jeffery.

I have also been looking at .22 rimfires but the consensus on this forum seems to be that they are inadequate weapons for home defence.

Regards.

[miroflex]

Do you reload? I would concider the lever action with down loaded ammunition. You can fire from the hip but the real defence would be the sound of an underlever being cocked an unmistakable sound with a lot of menace that should deter most undesirables

Reloading is a difficult proposition in India with the supplies not being easily available. Primers and powders for muzzle loaders are available in a limited fashion. These may not offer much variety. Bullets are unavailable and will have to be cast.

I agree that a lever action makes a lot of sound which can have a deterring effect. Double barrel rifles hardly produce any sound till they are fired.

I saw two more lever action rifles, both in .32-40 calibre today. One is a Winchester bearing the imprint "Manton & Co., Calcutta" on the left hand side. It is a carbine with a saddle ring. The other is a single shot Martini action by Westley Richards, London.

I also saw a bolt action .300 Savage for sale. Cartridges for the .32-40 and .300 are difficult to obtain

Regards.

[Skyman]

.300 Savage ammo is available iirc?

[miroflex]

Dear all,


Which will be a better type of action for purposes of home defence?

Regards.

the type that works everytime one pulls the trigger would be my guess sorry couldn't resist

Seriously though, there is a problem with a gun firing every time you pull the trigger.

The double barrel .405 that I have mentioned is of the hammerless type with a sliding safety catch mounted on the tang. The possibility of the safety catch slipping forward accidentally and the rifle going off unintentionally cannot be ruled out if it kept loaded, as it may be if there is an acute threat perception.

The Model 1895 Winchesters may also prove dangerous if they are kept with the chambers loaded in an effort to increase their capacity. It is of course possible to lower the external hammer slowly with the thumb while squeezing the trigger. This procedure is also not foolproof as the thumb may either slip or not release the hammer slowly enough, with disastrous consequences.

It gives one food for thought.

Regards.