Lever Action or Double Rifle?

[dr.jayakumar]

both are useless in india
regards
dr.jk

[miroflex]

sir that totally depends on your threat perception level. Are you expecting a mob or a burgler or are you expecting rampaging rhinos? Is your house rifle friendly? Meaning big rooms with wide enough staircases and good lines of fire? What about cover? Do yo live up in the mountains/prairies or in a city?

Have you had any experience firing a rifle?

Once you have taken all these factors into consideration then look a the magazine capacity. Now, unless the underlever is a single shot weapon(i,m assuming this one is not) there is no point in paying through your nose for a DB, unless, of course, yer a collector. But my experience says if the action is a little 'sticky', what's to say that it won't disrupt your timing/concentration/peace of mind when you need it the most? That said , a guns action should be uniformly smooth, be that a BA or a UL. But there are wiser people on the forum. Let's see if they concur.

It may have to be used against a mob or a gang of dacoits in open country on an agricultural farm. I may have to open fire from an upper storey verandah or an open rooftop to drive away intruders who may be armed. I do not envisage its use indoors.

I have some experience of rifle shooting although less than I have of revolver shooting.

The underlevers are Winchester Model 1895s with five round magazines. I agree that a 'sticky' action can disrupt my timing/ concentration / peace of mind. I found the action of the double barrel rifle rather stiff although quite positive.

Thanks and regards.

[Raptor]

in the scenario mentioned above sir the five round mag is better in my opinion. the double barrels need frequent reloads and in a life and death situation you want to fiddle as little as possible with your firearm. Furthermore in situations like the one you expect establishing dominance quickly is very important and numerically speaking five bangs one after the other, are more demoralizing than 2. That's going to be your 'deterence', for it is rather difficult to place accurate shots at moving targets over any distance unless you are combat trained and even then most people miss more than they hit . But the .405 is indeed rather powerful, hence collateral damage is a distinct possibility unless you can get your hands on some soft nosed cartridges. Won't necessarily prevent collateral damage but might reduce it considerably so long as you hit your target, also as pointed out by sir vikram ammunition might indeed be a problem. I feel you'll be more confortable with a more modern make from the logistics' point of view. Lastly , since fieldcraft is , in my opinion, more important than the arms you have ,may i also recommend floodlights attached to the outer walls directed outwards in all directions. The muzzle flash from a winnie is likely to attract all sorts on nasty repercussions. And i also recommend inside ledges on all windows about a foot deep. These are just a few suggestions i have to offer. Keep your barrel inside,stay low and change position quickly. Mark your shooting apertures in advance. Close any windows dorrs that may compromise your location and keep them closed always. Dont's use the roof.
Sincerely
Raptor1

[Skyman]

That's what i read, written by men who had used them.Apparently there is nothing like a smooth repeater in a medium caliber, but in larger calibers there might be some difficulty with the action as the rifle ages.
Microflex himself said the action is sticky.That is why.

[miroflex]

I would think like this.

D.R-Two quick shots without having to take the rifle off the shoulder,possibility of a quicker reload.

L.A.R-Not as fast as a DR but lever action is not slow either. Again no need to take the rifle off the shoulder to work the action. Offers more rounds than two before reload.But, reloading could be slower than reloading a DR.

I think I would go for a lever action for home defence, if that is the only thing I have.

But, how fresh the ammo would be that you could get ?

Best-
Vikram

Thank you for your reactions Vikram. I agree that a lever action magazine rifle offers slightly more possibilities for home defence than a double barrel rifle. Nevertheless, the latter had acquired an aura around it in the old shikar days which the passage of time has failed to dispel. In choosing between the two types one will have to choose between practicality and glamour.

If one is firing from a standing position, both types of action will be easy to operate. From a kneeling or prone position, a bolt action would be easier to operate.

Fresh .405 Winchester ammunition is being imported into India and is available with some dealers.

Regards.

[Raptor]

That's what i read, written by men who had used them.Apparently there is nothing like a smooth repeater in a medium caliber, but in larger calibers there might be some difficulty with the action as the rifle ages.
Microflex himself said the action is sticky.That is why.

the sticky action, i belive, was for the DB. Sir microflex the charm of a DB is indeed unparalleled but a gun is first and foremost a tool.

[miroflex]

The .405 Winchester is not ideal for home defence, in fact it would be decidedly dangerous for the neighbours.

I agree that a .405 Winchester is too heavy a weapon to be ideal for home defence. Most rifles in lighter calibres like 7x57 mm are, however, exhorbitantly priced in India. Hence I am exploring the possibility of buying an 'odd' bore i.e. an obsolete or obsolescent calibre, possibly a heavier one, for which ammunition, though scarce, is still available.

A 12 bore shotgun is another possibility for home defence that has occurred to me. Handguns are another option but are more expensive than either shotguns or rifles and generally less powerful.

The weapon is envisaged to be used on an isolated farm with the nearest neighbours being a mile or more away.

Regards.

[z375]

Which will be a better type of action for purposes of home defence?

Miroflex,

What you want to use for self-defence is totally different from what are otherwise appropriate weapons to get yourself out of a tight spot or potentially life-threatening situation. Large caliber rifles have the nasty habit of making one hell of a bang and there are very real possibilities of some collateral damage after the primary threat is eliminated or, should I say, given the time to think twice!

There are fewer more effective deterrents than the gaping maw of a shotgun, and everyone knows what the business end of one looks like, and when confronted, your opponent is sure to have a sudden change of heart and legging it whilst thinking about pressing issues that would need urgent attention, such as world peace!

[BowMan]

Which will be a better type of action for purposes of home defence?

Could you tell us something more about your threat perception and terrain conditions? Maybe the discussion should not have started without this information.

But then there are certain cartridges that are usually mated to certain actions. For example the mention of a .375 Flanged Magnum rifle will automatically evoke a picture of a English Double Rifle but a .357 Belted Magnum mostly implies a Bolt action rifle (preferably Mauser action).

To me the .405 Win is always a very American round because of its strong association with Theodore Roosevelt and his African Safari days and for this reason a 1895 Winchester Lever Action Rifle is what naturally comes to my imagination. An American cartridge in an English double rifle; good way to sacrilege.

However unless you are a collector purchase decisions should not be made by romancing with imagery but should be based on pros and cons of the decision evaluated in the present times.

Just my humble opinion though.

Regards

[miroflex]

A few more points:
1. How many rounds do you think it will take you to acquire proficieny with the said rifle and will you get enough working, reliable ammo which fits your budget too?
2. A double rifle is usually around 4 inches shorter than a bolt action rifle of similar barrel lengths. Points better and the smaller length might be helpful if you are using it in the confines of your house.
3. What about collateral damage? If you are residing in a built up area and end up maiming/killing someone else, you will be in a lot of trouble!
There a few more concerns regarding the amount of flash it will produce(.405 win) in the dark, which might blind you etc..
Reading off the 'net, if the lever action is an 1895, it will also kick like a mule, with excess drop at heel and a thin buttstock.
Also, please see the rifling before you make a decision. No use everyone shooting off their mouths here and you buying yourself a smoothbore .405 double rifle!!

Thank you for your comments.

I am accustomed to lever action repeaters, having handled a .44-40 Winchester quite a bit in earlier days. Hammerless double barrel rifles are less familiar to me. I envisage a certain amount of dry firing and some with live cartridges to get a feel of the rifle. Fresh ammunition is available for the .405 Winchester, although expensive. Perhaps I am being penny wise, pound foolish in considering a .405 Winchester.

The more rapid handling qualities of a double rifle are undeniable. Most lever actions are also short barrelled as compared to bolt action rifles. Both types of rifle should thus be capable of rapid point and shoot.

The rifle is envisaged to be kept in a farmhouse in the open countryside.

The double rifle seems to have been carried around far more than it has been used. The outside surfaces are more worn than the inside ones. The 1895 Winchesters are described by the dealers stocking them as being in excellent condition. The condition of the rifling may not therefore be a major cause for concern.

The recoil from a .405 is bound to be severe. I hope I can handle it.

Regards.

[TwoRivers]

First off, "collateral damage" from the .405 , except for a bigger hole, would be equal to that of a .30-30. A 300 grain bullet of .412" diameter has the same sectional density as a .308" 168 grain bullet. At 2200 fps the .405 mirrors the .30-30 in penetration and trajectory. A .30-06 would give that same bullet 2800+ fps. Muzzle blast would also be less than a .30-06 will give.

One thing to consider would be the slow loading of the 1895's magazine with rimmed cartridges. After the first one, cartridges have to be inserted vertically, slid back, and then rotated to horizontal and pressed down, to prevent rim over rim stoppages. To reload the magazine of a 1895 Winchester quickly, and under stress, takes a lot of practice. (That's why mine is built on an action originally chambered in .30-03, and takes a belted .405 wildcat.) The ones made for Russia during WWI had a magazine interuptor like the Russian M1891 rifle. And yes, with her standard stock, she'll kick like a mule. At both ends. A good cartridge to adjust a bear's attitude towards you or your horse.

Well, a .405 would not be my first choice for home defense. But I'd pick the double over the Model 1895, recovery for a second shot would be much quicker.

[miroflex]

I would take neither.The double would put down a security bot, and the lever action......wouldn't stake my safety on the gun.

I'm not very clear about your remarks. What is a security bot? Why the antipathy to lever actions? Perhaps you prefer bolt actions.

Regards.

[Raptor]

First off, "collateral damage" from the .405 , except for a bigger hole, would be equal to that of a .30-30. A 300 grain bullet of .412" diameter has the same sectional density as a .308" 168 grain bullet. At 2200 fps the .405 mirrors the .30-30 in penetration and trajectory. A .30-06 would give that same bullet 2800+ fps. Muzzle blast would also be less than a .30-06 will give.

One thing to consider would be the slow loading of the 1895's magazine with rimmed cartridges. After the first one, cartridges have to be inserted vertically, slid back, and then rotated to horizontal and pressed down, to prevent rim over rim stoppages. To reload the magazine of a 1895 Winchester quickly, and under stress, takes a lot of practice. (That's why mine is built on an action originally chambered in .30-03, and takes a belted .405 wildcat.) The ones made for Russia during WWI had a magazine interuptor like the Russian M1891 rifle. And yes, with her standard stock, she'll kick like a mule. At both ends. A good cartridge to adjust a bear's attitude towards you or your horse.

Well, a .405 would not be my first choice for home defense. But I'd pick the double over the Model 1895, recovery for a second shot would be much quicker.

sir rivers, thank you for your valuable inputs about the loading procedure , it does sound rather cumbersome, does it not? However, the collateral damage being reffered to here, is, i believe, with respect to the penetration power of the .405, and not the diameter of the entry/exit wound. Could you please provide us with any insights about the same? Thank you.

[Raptor]

I would take neither.The double would put down a security bot, and the lever action......wouldn't stake my safety on the gun.

I'm not very clear about your remarks. What is a security bot? Why the antipathy to lever actions? Perhaps you prefer bolt actions.

Regards.

i believe the gentleman's aversion to underlevers stems from his choice of reading material. Although it is quite interesting how putting down a 'security bot'(whatever alien life form that may be!)is held against the DB! Now i am not a proponent of the underlever either but if that is the only gun i have at my disposal then instead of fretting about its inherent shortcomings i'd rather work with it to hone my skills further, till i achieve sufficient proficiency. But that is just what I would do....can't speak for anyone else .

[timmy]

I would take neither.The double would put down a security bot, and the lever action......wouldn't stake my safety on the gun.

I'm not very clear about your remarks. What is a security bot? Why the antipathy to lever actions? Perhaps you prefer bolt actions.

Regards.

i believe the gentleman's aversion to underlevers stems from his choice of reading material. Although it is quite interesting how putting down a 'security bot'(whatever alien life form that may be!)is held against the DB! Now i am not a proponent of the underlever either but if that is the only gun i have at my disposal then instead of fretting about its inherent shortcomings i'd rather work with it to hone my skills further, till i achieve sufficient proficiency. But that is just what I would do....can't speak for anyone else .

Raptor, it might well be that "the gentleman" in question bases his advice and views on his choice of reading material, or perhaps he has some experience that he's relying upon -- I really don't kow.

Your observation raises a related question in my mind: upon what do you base your views and advice on this matter?