Re-arming Indian army

[Vassili Zaitsev]

Just read this message in NDTV website and seriously think this transition should have taken place long ago.
Yet again, better late than never and this is going to be interesting transition in the Indian Army..

Details are in the below link.

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/re-ar ... ons-298245

Also experts, can anyone please explain and I quote the ideas or the process of the below statement:

"To begin with, the current mix of 7.62 self-loading rifle and the 5.56 INSAS rifle used by some battalions is likely to be replaced by a new double barrel rifle complete with a conversion kit which will enable the troops to make dual use..."

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indi ... -army.html

[sa_ali]

I recall reading sometime back that the army is not placing any further order for the INSAS, army has already burned it fingers too much with INSAS. Its such a shame that will all those multi crore project to design a INSAS rifle has being such a failure.

http://frontierindia.org/forum/f4/govt- ... alli-1324/

[Glock 25]

[Raptor]

what DB rifle? Are we hunting elephants or arming a modern army !?! this is rather odd...

[xl_target]

what DB rifle? Are we hunting elephants or arming a modern army !?! this is rather odd...

LOL, Raptor. I thought the same thing.
So apparently they are going to stay with the same calibers (7.62 x39 and 5.56 X 45) but are just looking for more reliable rifles.

Not sure what they (NDTV) mean by "Czech Republic's Ceska" but they do make the CZ 805 Bren in 5.56 X 45 and 7.92 x 39.


CZ 805 Bren A1
Link HERE


CZ 805 Bren A2 (shorter barreled version of the above)
Link Here

[timmy]

Re: the double barrel issue, I think this is what is referred to:

The winning assault rifle will come equipped with 5.56mm and 7.62mm (M43) caliber with interchangeable barrels conversion kits, with the 5.56mm option being used in a conventional war fighting role as the barrel will provide longer range, while 7.62mm configuration will be used in counter-terrorism and the counter-insurgency environment, as it will provide troops the capability to fire like AK-56 rifles.

[xl_target]

Re: the double barrel issue, I think this is what is referred to:

The winning assault rifle will come equipped with 5.56mm and 7.62mm (M43) caliber with interchangeable barrels conversion kits, with the 5.56mm option being used in a conventional war fighting role as the barrel will provide longer range, while 7.62mm configuration will be used in counter-terrorism and the counter-insurgency environment, as it will provide troops the capability to fire like AK-56 rifles.

Sure Tim,
It's just that we have some reporters reporting on a subject on which they have little knowledge, which they do quite often. I'm sure the reporter meant being able to substitute different calibers on a single receiver but lacking the knowledge, he came up with "double barreled rifles", which means something totally different.
He probably has no clue about interchanging uppers on a single receiver or how they work. He's just trying to translate what he was told to the best of his ability, which isn't very high apparently.
That's what Raptor and I are laughing about.

Also the impression given with the statement above is the 5.56 x 45 "will provide longer range" than 7.62 X 39. Huhn?
also he says "as it will provide troops the capability to fire like AK-56 rifles". Why would anyone want to take a step back to a 1956 Chinese copy of a 1947 Russian rifle?
M43 ammo? Wouldn't it be better to use M67 ammo which has better terminal ballistics and capabilities.
The reporter has apparently been told stuff that he doesn't quite understand so he's just making it up as he goes along.

The problem is that a lot of people will take these words as gospel.

[timmy]

XL: Yes, you are right. I admit, I seldom get too worked up over these journalists because so few of them do enough homework to really educate their readers. Rather, they remind me of schoolchildren who wait until the last moment to fill a poorly written report with cribbed Cliff's Notes.

So I suppose I've gotten lazy myself, and am used to so-called journalists calling every naval vessel down to a plastic bathtub toy a "battleship," hearing the Dan Rather of the day calling the Hradčany Castle the "Royal Castle" (apparently, his mental abilities didn't permit him to learn the proper pronunciation, much less the history, of the Hradčany), and hearing every do-gooding half wit refer to a salad fork as an assault rifle.

I am a sad figure: I've come to accept and even expect mediocrity and "dumbing down" from the news.

[Sakobav]

Indian defense forces need a lesson in standardization and logistics from Tanks, Airplanes, Ships etc they always end up with hotch potch or khichdie of weapons. Nightmare if one has to maintain spares or training..such decisions on choosing the basic weapon the gun for a jawan the tip of spear should have been made years ago..this is pathetic. Jawan equipment be it gun, shoes or clothes or kit incluing helmets or body armour etc dont seem to be priority! They will spend trillions on white elephants air craft carriers/ jets etc while they cant even manufacture decent ammo or a gun! Go figure

[Raptor]

well we have the tavor now which is good enough....although personally i would stick to the 1A1. There is something reassuring about its heft. All this conversion kit nonsense is a bit beyond me. Who the hell would want to fiddlef#*k with a battle rifle in the middle of a firefight or even operational deployment? sir grewal is absolutely right we should focus on standrandizing our unfiforms and kit instead of irresponsible experiments with 'white elephants'. Our bravehearts have to get their fatigues 'stiched' and improvise bandoliers out of schoolbag lunch pockets our army boots don't last more than 2 months in rough terrains. Our soldiers are not properly sensitized to the customs and the mores of the places they serve in... Our YoYos are way too 'high' on the smell of their own 'pips' to pay attention to what the experienced JCO/NCO saheban have to teach them. Our battle doctrine is retrograde at best...and instead of fixing the fundamentals here we go again..reinventing yet another wheel....how many more will of our soldiers must we sacrifice needlessly before someone somewhere wakes up and decides to smell the roses ? Do we even deserve these young men and women who don the uniform?

[winnie_the_pooh]

So the army is at it again.They are going to buy one rifle for the price of two.The muddle heads can not seem to decide how to arm themselves. One of the reasons why the INSAS took so long to design is because of conflicting demands from the army,apparently.The credit for it being a complete failure rests with the incompetent,arrogant and delusional chaps at the IOFB,however.

Why is the army wasting resources on this calibre conversion thing? Is the entire army going to be deployed on counter insurgency operations?

[TwoRivers]

Got to love journalists. The story makes me wonder whether the higher ranks will get "bespoke" versions of these new double barreled rifles, perhaps with sidelocks and fancy wood, instead of plastic? SxS or O/U? Though I hope care is taken in selecting the cartridges chosen, to avoid a problem similar to the 20 gauge in a 12 gauge chamber. I can already see a lot of our members in line at the recruitment center once this rifle is adopted. Is there an age limit for joining the Indian army?

[mundaire]

Talking about basic "kit", a couple of days back some friends and I were at the Coleman store in Connaught Place to pick up some items. The salesman while showing us his wares proudly told us that recently some senior Indian Army officers had picked up a bunch of stuff from him, including folding chairs and folding camp cots - for their personal use during a joint Indo-US military excercise. Guess the standard army issue ones were of embarrassing bad quality and they wanted better made kit, especially in front of their US guests...

The DMS boot pattern used by the IA was discontinued by the Brits more than 30 years ago as it has no arch support and was found to cause needless foot injuries. The IA tender for modern running shoes is still hanging fire as the animal rights nazis took them to court howling that running shoes made using leather uppers would lead to slaughter of x number of animals! The court apparently has now asked the IA to explore using alternate materials.... End of rant!

[essdee1972]

Errr...... why don't they stick to the SMLE?

I mean, with all the training and retraining an infantryman has to go through every couple of years as a new rifle is introduced, if they had been trained to this extent on the SMLE then they probably would have beaten the old British Army record of the "mad minute"!

Well, if the babus & netas have made money out of the soldiers' coffins (remember the case during the Kargil conflict?), one can expect nothing better from them!

Does the DRDO / IOF design team (assuming one exists) have anyone with battle experience? Even the senior star generals who sit on these committees, do they have first hand experience of being shot at, a kill-or-be-killed situation? If not, then whatever they design will be based on theoretical knowledge and personal bias. Probably I, or my dog, can do equally good, or bad!

During my trip to J&K this month, I saw a variety of weapons in the same squad (of course these were paramilitaries - BSF, CRPF, not Army). AK47s (old design, wooden stock), AKM, AK74, (the last two in normal blued metal + plastic / wood, and full matte black paint finishes) INSAS, and at least one chap in each squad (esp BSF) carried a Tavor. Plus a few J&K Police with even the old FN-FAL design, and 9 mm Sterling IOF copies (the ones with the curved mag on the left of the gun). One good thing I saw were a few modern Kevlar helmets instead of the WW1 vintage metal ones. With such a variety, the principle of inter-usability (i.e. a chap with a jammed weapon picks up his dead / wounded comrades gun and continues) is blown to bits!

One's respect for the guys in uniform goes up a few notches, once one sees what horrendous tools they have to use!

[gladiatorgarg]

Honestly speaking our policy makers are nut heads n 99% of them does not know the actual requirement of the equipment which we use on ground!!!since no one is bothered to take a feed back from the foot soldier or the sec cdr/pl cdr/coy cdr...higher ups takes decisions behind closed ac doors faar off from the maddening ground realities...lets see if this sudden wake up call does any good to the organisation otherwise we r always ready to ward off any evil even with kitchen knives n thats how we earn our respect world wide...inspite of lack of govt attention n interest in our well-being we always deliver the best... n wee ll keep-on doin dat with or w/o beretta..i just hope im not sounding cynical...sorry guys i knt help it