I was reading the Times of India (25th Nov, 2012), and this article 'Indians and Cowboys' caught my sight. I have attached a photograph of the same here, and a link to the article in their website.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 56007.cms?
It is high time that we gather together and try to enlighten the media about gun rights and how it would help curb the existence and inflow of illegal arms into the country.
Also, I found a poster in the front page of 'The Hindu' dated 15th October 2012, wherein, the support for 'Gutkha Tobacco Products' was promulgated. You can find the images below -
I think it would be good if we also advocate gun rights in the same manner, through the media which is slandering the same. If an association advocating tobacco products could enlighten people, why cant we?
Regards,
Vivek
Indians & Cowboys - Times of India
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vivekpeter
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Indians & Cowboys - Times of India
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Gun control??!!
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Skyman
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Re: Indians & Cowboys - Times of India
What a stupid statement - " Indians aren't mature because women get molested here, and shouldn't have guns " They get molested everywhere.Did the article bother to find out WHY people prefer illegal weapons?
Imagine - An AK for 60,000 and an IOF pistol that barely works for almost twice that?
Imagine - An AK for 60,000 and an IOF pistol that barely works for almost twice that?
I would rather hit my target gently than miss hard.
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vivekpeter
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Re: Indians & Cowboys - Times of India
They dont care about it! And worse, look what statement an IPS officer is making!!!Skyman wrote:What a stupid statement - " Indians aren't mature because women get molested here, and shouldn't have guns " They get molested everywhere.Did the article bother to find out WHY people prefer illegal weapons?
Imagine - An AK for 60,000 and an IOF pistol that barely works for almost twice that?
He is referring to us directly! And the whole idea of RKBA is down in the gutter because of a nitwitted statement from a IPS officer! It is time that we respond to this absurdity!Yet there are groups in India that have been asking for relaxed gun laws. They reason that once more people have firearms, they will be reluctant to use them at each other. "This demand must never be met. Indian society is still not mature, or else why would a woman wearing a miniskirt be molested, and that too in Guwahati which is otherwise quite progressive and peaceful?", says IPS officer Dilip Bora, currently the additional director general of Assam Police.
Gun control??!!
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timmy
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Re: Indians & Cowboys - Times of India
I do not follow the logic of the article: if gun regulations are relaxed and the gun owner who is now permitted 50 rounds of ammunition can obtain 500 rounds of ammunition, how does this change what goons do with illegal guns? If the person with a permit for one or three guns is able to easily obtain another gun, how does this affect the goons mentioned in the article who killed the liquor dealer in the shoot out?
Or, let me turn this another way: if the gun owner who currently is allowed 50 rounds of ammunition will only be allowed 5 rounds, and if legal gun owners who want to buy another gun are forbidden to do so, can such a move reasonably be expected to stop these kinds of shoot outs?
The answer is, of course not!
Various people want to use these events to deny gun rights to law abiding citizens, and other groups seek to divert attention from the question of why these shoot outs are happening by blaming legal gun owners for the problem of illegal gun use.
I suggest that problems such as these shoot outs ae best solved by efficient pursuit and prosecution of actual criminals, not by harassing law abiding citizens who ae simply trying to exercise their rights as currently provided by law.
It seems to me that the law enforcement official seeks to attribute these problems to immature citizens rather than accept law enforcement's responsibility for failures in these matters. As far as Indian society being immature, such a statement sounds as ridiculous as claiming the Italians ae still immature in the art of opera. If Indians, who have had civilization longer than anywhere else in the world are immature, just where is maturity found, pray tell?
Perhaps the immaturity actually lies in the area of journalism or law enforcement. Or, maybe the problem lies with people who have responsibility, and their refusal to accept responsibility for their decisions and polities. Not taking responsibility for one's actions and decisions is a sure sign of immaturity.
Blaming innocent people for situations and results because the truth runs counter to one's preconceived notions also indicates a lack of maturity.
I suggest that the writer of this article and the sources that were used to support its points could stand to purchase some mirrors -- and use them.
Or, let me turn this another way: if the gun owner who currently is allowed 50 rounds of ammunition will only be allowed 5 rounds, and if legal gun owners who want to buy another gun are forbidden to do so, can such a move reasonably be expected to stop these kinds of shoot outs?
The answer is, of course not!
Various people want to use these events to deny gun rights to law abiding citizens, and other groups seek to divert attention from the question of why these shoot outs are happening by blaming legal gun owners for the problem of illegal gun use.
I suggest that problems such as these shoot outs ae best solved by efficient pursuit and prosecution of actual criminals, not by harassing law abiding citizens who ae simply trying to exercise their rights as currently provided by law.
It seems to me that the law enforcement official seeks to attribute these problems to immature citizens rather than accept law enforcement's responsibility for failures in these matters. As far as Indian society being immature, such a statement sounds as ridiculous as claiming the Italians ae still immature in the art of opera. If Indians, who have had civilization longer than anywhere else in the world are immature, just where is maturity found, pray tell?
Perhaps the immaturity actually lies in the area of journalism or law enforcement. Or, maybe the problem lies with people who have responsibility, and their refusal to accept responsibility for their decisions and polities. Not taking responsibility for one's actions and decisions is a sure sign of immaturity.
Blaming innocent people for situations and results because the truth runs counter to one's preconceived notions also indicates a lack of maturity.
I suggest that the writer of this article and the sources that were used to support its points could stand to purchase some mirrors -- and use them.
“Fanaticism consists of redoubling your efforts when you have forgotten your aim.”
saying in the British Royal Navy
saying in the British Royal Navy
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shooter
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Re: Indians & Cowboys - Times of India
Refreshing to read a somewhat neutral article for change. At least someone has pointed out that its the neutral guns that cause crime.
You want more gun control? Use both hands!
God made man and God made woman, but Samuel Colt made them equal.
One does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted. by Jose Gasset.
God made man and God made woman, but Samuel Colt made them equal.
One does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted. by Jose Gasset.
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Vikram
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Re: Indians & Cowboys - Times of India
At last one article that entirely focused on illegal guns and did not segue into a clarion call for curbing legal firearms ownership. That is not to say that it did not have its shortcomings. That officer should answer the question what he and his men were doing when that young teenager was going through the ordeal. What connection does it have to legal gun ownership to a criminal mob act? I see this logical disconnect all the time and it irks me to no end.
VivekPeter, Thank you for posting this article.
Best-
Vikram
VivekPeter, Thank you for posting this article.
Best-
Vikram
It ain’t over ’til it’s over! "Rocky,Rocky,Rocky....."
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TC
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Go to Gaffar Market and buy your AK47 says Times of India
Read the articles posted by Abhijeet and Vikram. But I am curious to know how many members read this Times of India article on AKs being sold for a song at the heart of Delhi... 
Indians and cowboys
By Manimugdha S Sharma, TNN | Nov 25, 2012, 05.48 AM IST
The details are still fuzzy as to who shot who, but the rivalry between liquor baron Ponty Chadha and his brother Hardeep ended in bloodbath at their Chattarpur farmhouse last week. Not just the brazenness of the act but also the wanton display of firepower stunned the entire country, forcing the Supreme Court to take suo motu cognizance and question the national gun-control norms. Clearly, the market for illegal weapons is booming in India. But where are the guns coming from, and how big is the business?
A source in army intelligence says that one doesn't have to try too hard to get the most preferred weapon in India—the AK-47 and AK-56 . In Delhi's Karol Bagh lies Gaffar Market, a one-stop destination for all electronic goods, including cellphones . Right from brand-new originals to fakes, everything is available here at a cheaper price. But what most people don't know is that Gaffar Market is also the place where you can buy an AK-47 of Soviet make or its younger sibling, the AK-74, for anything between Rs 60,000 and Rs 5 lakh, depending on the originality of the weapon. Knockoffs are cheaper and usually originate in Hungary, Bulgaria, Pakistan or China. Incidentally, the original Russian manufacturer, Izhmash Corporation, no longer makes the AK-47 or AK-56; in fact, Kremlin is planning to destroy five million AK-47 s piled up in its arsenal. Experts, however, fear these unused Russian rifles would ultimately land in the illegal weapons market.
"The arms market is thriving in India and the law is ill-equipped to put curbs on it. Sophisticated small arms enter India through Jammu & Kashmir, Punjab, Rajasthan, regions bordering Nepal, Nagaland and Manipur; some are also made in places like Munger in Bihar. But the percentage of people owning such guns is lower as compared to those owning country-made firearms such as kattas or tamanchas," says Major General (retd) Dipankar Banerjee of Institute of Peace and Conflict Studies.
Small, difficult to trace factories spread all over Uttar Pradesh, Jharkhand and Bihar manufacture kattas, 10 and 12 bore shotguns and even rifles. These weapons are favourites with local gangs that indulge in robberies, kidnappings and extortions. What's worse—even schoolchildren have access to such weapons. Prashant Nautiyal (name changed) studied in Colvin Taluqdars College in Lucknow. He says some of the boys in his class would bring kattas and open fire in the classroom. "I once remember a student throwing a bomb towards the teacher's dais in a maths class. Terrified, the teacher left the classroom. We were fortunate to escape unhurt," he says.
Gun-control norms in India are somewhat stricter than other countries . Even then 40 million Indians own guns of whom 85% never register their firearms, says Gunpolicy.org. These weapons are responsible for 90% homicides involving a firearm . Yet there are groups in India that have been asking for relaxed gun laws. They reason that once more people have firearms, they will be reluctant to use them at each other. "This demand must never be met. Indian society is still not mature, or else why would a woman wearing a miniskirt be molested, and that too in Guwahati which is otherwise quite progressive and peaceful?", says IPS officer Dilip Bora, currently the additional director general of Assam Police.
Northeast incidentally is a big source of illegal weapons. Bora says this market is controlled by insurgent groups such as Ulfa, NDFB and NSCN. "Then you have these warlords who are surrendered militants and who survive on arms deals. They get all the prohibited bore weapons, such as 9mm pistols and carbines, and AK series rifles, from China and Pakistan. These weapons enter India through borders that are so porous that no amount of military or police patrolling can block these routes."
But what if the armed forces are also a source of illegal weapons? "Kashmiri militants had a standard gear in the 90s: an AK rifle, a Chinese 9mm pistol and five hand grenades . If five of them were killed, the army would have five rifles, five pistols and 25 grenades," says a source in army intelligence. "But most of the time, the entire haul was never declared; some weapons were saved up to show future hauls. Sometimes, these weapons would disappear from the stock and invariably appear in the grey market."
This perhaps explains why it's possible to walk into a market in the heart of Delhi and pick up an AK-47.
Indians and cowboys
By Manimugdha S Sharma, TNN | Nov 25, 2012, 05.48 AM IST
The details are still fuzzy as to who shot who, but the rivalry between liquor baron Ponty Chadha and his brother Hardeep ended in bloodbath at their Chattarpur farmhouse last week. Not just the brazenness of the act but also the wanton display of firepower stunned the entire country, forcing the Supreme Court to take suo motu cognizance and question the national gun-control norms. Clearly, the market for illegal weapons is booming in India. But where are the guns coming from, and how big is the business?
A source in army intelligence says that one doesn't have to try too hard to get the most preferred weapon in India—the AK-47 and AK-56 . In Delhi's Karol Bagh lies Gaffar Market, a one-stop destination for all electronic goods, including cellphones . Right from brand-new originals to fakes, everything is available here at a cheaper price. But what most people don't know is that Gaffar Market is also the place where you can buy an AK-47 of Soviet make or its younger sibling, the AK-74, for anything between Rs 60,000 and Rs 5 lakh, depending on the originality of the weapon. Knockoffs are cheaper and usually originate in Hungary, Bulgaria, Pakistan or China. Incidentally, the original Russian manufacturer, Izhmash Corporation, no longer makes the AK-47 or AK-56; in fact, Kremlin is planning to destroy five million AK-47 s piled up in its arsenal. Experts, however, fear these unused Russian rifles would ultimately land in the illegal weapons market.
"The arms market is thriving in India and the law is ill-equipped to put curbs on it. Sophisticated small arms enter India through Jammu & Kashmir, Punjab, Rajasthan, regions bordering Nepal, Nagaland and Manipur; some are also made in places like Munger in Bihar. But the percentage of people owning such guns is lower as compared to those owning country-made firearms such as kattas or tamanchas," says Major General (retd) Dipankar Banerjee of Institute of Peace and Conflict Studies.
Small, difficult to trace factories spread all over Uttar Pradesh, Jharkhand and Bihar manufacture kattas, 10 and 12 bore shotguns and even rifles. These weapons are favourites with local gangs that indulge in robberies, kidnappings and extortions. What's worse—even schoolchildren have access to such weapons. Prashant Nautiyal (name changed) studied in Colvin Taluqdars College in Lucknow. He says some of the boys in his class would bring kattas and open fire in the classroom. "I once remember a student throwing a bomb towards the teacher's dais in a maths class. Terrified, the teacher left the classroom. We were fortunate to escape unhurt," he says.
Gun-control norms in India are somewhat stricter than other countries . Even then 40 million Indians own guns of whom 85% never register their firearms, says Gunpolicy.org. These weapons are responsible for 90% homicides involving a firearm . Yet there are groups in India that have been asking for relaxed gun laws. They reason that once more people have firearms, they will be reluctant to use them at each other. "This demand must never be met. Indian society is still not mature, or else why would a woman wearing a miniskirt be molested, and that too in Guwahati which is otherwise quite progressive and peaceful?", says IPS officer Dilip Bora, currently the additional director general of Assam Police.
Northeast incidentally is a big source of illegal weapons. Bora says this market is controlled by insurgent groups such as Ulfa, NDFB and NSCN. "Then you have these warlords who are surrendered militants and who survive on arms deals. They get all the prohibited bore weapons, such as 9mm pistols and carbines, and AK series rifles, from China and Pakistan. These weapons enter India through borders that are so porous that no amount of military or police patrolling can block these routes."
But what if the armed forces are also a source of illegal weapons? "Kashmiri militants had a standard gear in the 90s: an AK rifle, a Chinese 9mm pistol and five hand grenades . If five of them were killed, the army would have five rifles, five pistols and 25 grenades," says a source in army intelligence. "But most of the time, the entire haul was never declared; some weapons were saved up to show future hauls. Sometimes, these weapons would disappear from the stock and invariably appear in the grey market."
This perhaps explains why it's possible to walk into a market in the heart of Delhi and pick up an AK-47.