Sniper Rifles- Does the Indian Army use them at all?

[fantumfan2003]

The have several.....

Locally Made Vidhwansk
Denel Anti material from South Africa
Most recent acquisition is the Army SF using the Hungarian GM6 Lynx Bullpup
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gepard_anti-materiel_rifle

Mumbai Police Force 1 unit has the Barret, not sure if it is the M82 or M107

M.

It is high time that Indian army get 50 cal sniper rifles.

[fantumfan2003]

That way it is easier for the procurement agencies to make a quick buck thru kickbacks.......



M.

Some times the less we know the better on specifics regarding our capabilities. Better that the lay man and the enemy feel that we NOT capable, till they get a very unpleasant surprise.

[Skyman]

Do any of you know what is the aprox cost of different caliber rounds? How much does 5.56, 7.62, .303, .50 etc cost the army? And how much do civilian rounds cost in comparison?

[boris]

Friends,
Whether, the Indian Army uses sniper rifles or not, or whether they have or they do not have a doctrine, is known only to them. And that is precisely how it should be, I dont think the man on the street needs to know, where, why and how the Indian Army is using what to tackle whom?
Western motion picture makers have glamorised the sniper and his craft, depicting european , american snipers as celluloid heroes. This does not mean that Indian Armed Forces are not up to the mark. Some times the less we know the better on specifics regarding our capabilities. Better that the lay man and the enemy feel that we NOT capable, till they get a very unpleasant surprise.

I completely agree...

Thanks for the info TC. All I am saying is, Indian army should be at par with all other armies.

Rest assured our Army is much better. I know of three joint exercises where our boys had given US Marines, Israeli special forces and last but not the least the French Legion a run for their money. And I am not talking of war exercises using aircraft, tank etc. These were all tests of the human body and mind... One of them was held deep inside the jungles in North East.
If there is anything that comes between our boys and the enemy then it is our bureaucracy and political system.

We won't laugh. After all, the venerable 303 with a scope was used by the British as a sniper weapon in two world wars

I didn't laugh at all when I was on that ship. I just love the 303. In fact I wrote exactly what you have written in XL Targets thread on Canadian Rangers using the 303 Enfield to control the bear population.

...don't forget the significant number of IWI Galatz 7.62mmx51mm Rifles with the Army SF/Paras, Mauser SP86's in small numbers with the Army (Don't know what units though), Steyr-Mannlicher SSG69's with the BSF, and of course supplementary H&K MSG-90's with the NSG and some state police forces and a sprinkling of SVD-S's (at least with the MARCOS)

TC, any idea what became of the Denel anti-material rifles... ever since that mini scandal?

regards,

Cottage Cheese, our forces have procured many small arms from many sources over the years without many people ever knowing why they were procured in the first place and what became of them. I have mentioned only those that were used more than the rest. There could be many more about which we are still in the dark. The process of procuring small arms is a very convoluted and at times corrupted process because the amount of money involved is less than what it takes to buy a plane and hence it is easier to escape public attention. You have mentioned one. The last I heard about the anti-material rifle is that the government was talking to a different vendor.

TC

Some good points here regarding that some small arms were procured and most even don't know that military has them in their arsenal,the MARCOS and Para(SF) would be a great example of this when they used a Taiwanese style AR before M4's were procured from the US.

The Army trains snipers/marksmen at the Corps Battle School and maybe at CIJWS too.

In terms of Sniper training the Indian Army is sadly not at par with the US,UK because thanks to the conventional commanders at the top who prefer using large force compared to snipers.The SF too has sadly suffered because of them.A separate SF command with no interference from the conventional forces would take us to the same league as the SAS,Delta Force because lets face it even though our boys are as nails as them but in certain skills we lag behind them.

Earlier the US Navy SEALs including SEAL Team 6 sent their boys for sniper training at the Marine Corps Sniper School in Camp Pendleton but since the late 90's the SEALs started their own school and I must say from what I read about it and its training procedure in "American Sniper" by Chris Kyle the US is at a different level in modern Sniper doctrine.

Though even the Russians aren't behind ,the legend Vasily Zaytsev as a teacher had students who logged close to 3000 kills.

[boris]

The have several.....

Locally Made Vidhwansk
Denel Anti material from South Africa
Most recent acquisition is the Army SF using the Hungarian GM6 Lynx Bullpup
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gepard_anti-materiel_rifle

Mumbai Police Force 1 unit has the Barret, not sure if it is the M82 or M107

M.

It is high time that Indian army get 50 cal sniper rifles.

I'd never take the M82 as a sniper weapon,it is good as an anti-material weapon.There are far better options like the Tac-50 which gives 1-1.5 MOA accuracy,with match grade ammo the Tac-50 can go upto 1 MOA consistently. The AS-50 is another good one in the .50 cal range.

I am not much of a fan of .50 cal when .338 lapua magnum and .300 Win Mag can do the same damage with better accuracy.

and only Mumbai Police knows why on earth they procured the Barrett.A .50 cal sniper rifle is no joke,one needs superb training and constant practice to be proficient at it.Force One is one big joke as a Counter Terrorism force,I have serious doubt if Police in India can make a force thats good at that.Just giving M-4,MP5,Barrett does not make one a super duper anti terrorist force.

[tirpassion]

Dear all,
Here are some off topic examples.

- Italian design/style is the best
- French perfume is the best
- French wine is the best
- German cars are the best
blah blah blah..
How did we know that? How did we know that the others are not as good or why not even better? The simple reason is mass communication / propaganda. There are obviously manifold interests behind this mass communication/propaganda. So, it is not abnormal that we know so much about the navy seals, Swat, the US Air force fighter pilots and their acts of heroism/bravery. It is also not abnormal for us to understand that these braveheart heros use the best possible equipments/machines made on Earth.

Sometimes, I prefer to believe that 'Ignorance is bliss'.

regards
tirpassion

[Skyman]

Well, in the above examples, Italian styling is one of the best.French is beside it imo.WRT cars, the Germans own many brands Eg- Volkswagen owns Porche,Skoda,Scania,Audi ( Who owns Lambhorgini and Ducati ) ,Bugatti,Bentley etc.The best cars often have the Germans meddling in some way.Bmw and Mercedes-Benz are German.Even astons have much of their work done in and around Germany, as does Rolls-Royce.

In a way, some the best cars and motorcycles are German.

[hvj1]

Snipers are used to achieve political and or military objectives. The ramifications of a sniper, taking down an important political figure has far reaching consequences, for example the removal of a potential dictator, at an opportune moment, can entirely alter the political future of a country. Many inconvenient political figures have been removed most conveniently through a sniper in order to move a particular country in the direction, convenient for those who deploy the sniper.

Hence the sniper has a more 'far reaching' effect when deployed politically.

Militarily, the sniper can achieve short term goals by impeding the advance of an enemy through breakdown of enemy command and controls ( knocking of officers and those in command), breakdown of enemy morale, particularly of advancing foot soldiers and finally providing vital recon inputs to their own command and control.
But the most important aspect of defining the scope of sniper warfare techniques, lies in the doctrine, which simply put, is when to employ a sniper and against whom?

Obviously, taking out political figures spells out a well thought out and ruthless doctrine of the respective country,
whereas limiting the scope to only military use is a fairly standard doctrine.

The ruthlessness of the doctrine dictates the training methodology.

[INSAS556]

Yes, Indian army uses sniper rifles.
the major lot of the rifles include the locally made dragunov svd 7.62X54R called the dv59 variant.
this forms a common lot among the infantry men as it is a designated 'marskmen' rifle.
also we do use mauser sp66 (basically a hunting rifle) bolt action rifle.(7.62X51)
other highend sniper weapon systems our army uses are the hk-psg1, hk-msg 90.
also our army uses high caliber rifles (anti material rifles) we use Mechnev ntw-20 anti mateiral rifle. This rifle is highly modular, and comes with a wide choice of ammo and barrel selection.(14mm- 20mm) as per mission demands. also different types of rounds can be used starting from conventional rounds to armour piercing, to incendiary. many of us have a perception that the barret is the best but there are a lot of other players that too are far better than the barett(tv propoganda and all, no doubt barett is a good weapon but still there are others to consider) this weapon system is mainly used by our special forces. unlike the western counterparts where there is a lot of talk about snipers and other hardware, here in india it is not that much in to use as we dont have such utility except in few cases. And yes, all our special forces guys are no doubt the bestest shooters as their passing criteria is min. 80% shooting targets accurately under most adverse conditions.
our jawans have a better eyesight. the simple example is that they can shoot down the target upto a decent range with open iron sights unlike the others we see in movies that are equipped with laser sights.
i am writing this as i have seen these anti material gun at 'know your army' exhibition way back in my college days when i was battalion commander of ncc(fortunate that i could click fotos) i would love to share lots of fotos of military exhibition but sadly i dont know how????

[INSAS556]

also, unlike the west our army doesnt like to show off the hardware or glorify itself. they believe in action.
also i too have heard the incidents from our trainers of ncc that these foreign forces comes to india to learn jungle warfare in the jungles of northeast. for sure our army is the best. our country has a wide range of terrain with all types of climatic conditions and our army is trained to go on and take on any one. lets not have any inferiority complex with others. simply hanging gadgets on body doesnt make an army superior. its the metal that is bourne within. indian army lets others just keep guessing. i can say this confidently just because i have trained with those guys and bunked my lectures to acquire knowledge of firearms and military hardware.

[Raptor]

the best rifle is the one that we choose not to use..and yes it's the .308 ishapore markIII 2A1. If only we had improved upon that we'd be sitting pretty..but then congress happened...goodbye development!

[ECHOFIGHTER]

Friends,
Whether, the Indian Army uses sniper rifles or not, or whether they have or they do not have a doctrine, is known only to them. And that is precisely how it should be, I dont think the man on the street needs to know, where, why and how the Indian Army is using what to tackle whom?
Western motion picture makers have glamorised the sniper and his craft, depicting european , american snipers as celluloid heroes. This does not mean that Indian Armed Forces are not up to the mark. Some times the less we know the better on specifics regarding our capabilities. Better that the lay man and the enemy feel that we NOT capable, till they get a very unpleasant surprise.

Regards for your opinion Sir! The Indian Army may not have the best equipment but they are second to none as far as tactics and hard core professionalism is concerned. I was once told of an incident by an Army officer of an Indian Army sniper who stayed immobile for a full 18 hours just to get that one shot at the enemy and did full justice to the shot! We have men who will deliver in the worst of circumstances!

[bennedose]

The Dragunov is frequently exhibited at exhibitions and in photos of the Indian army. I have held one (but not fired one). If feels light and beautufilly balanced. Oh to plink at 1000 meters <sigh>

[brihacharan]

[quote="Katana"]The Dragunov is an old work horse with the army. Unfortunately neither defense arm or even para military set ups, apart from the NSG and SFs (Parachute Regiment), have realized the importance sniping in warfare. I hope I'm wrong but they are just not up to date with developments in this field world wide. In fact, long range sniping with modern and contemporary weaponry may not be part of the Army's doctrine.

Or, it may be babudom restricting it's (weaponry) induction either by way of importation of these weapons or an impotent DRDO.

their snipers are called 'designated marksmen', not snipers.

> Knowing our bureaurocracy these "Designated Marksmen" will be classified as Grade 1, 2, 3, 4 etc Eg: All targets wiyhin 100mtrs will be given to Grade 1 & so on the farthest to Grade 4

> I firmly belive that All Babooooos ( look closely & you may find th 3rd 'o' to be an 'n') should be left to handle "General Admin" matters & not let them interfere with defence, hi-tech affairs, core industries et.
Briha

[fantumfan2003]

I believe this true but nevertheless clichéd statement has to be disowned and stopped by all of us.

This is precisely the reason why the armed forces are saddled with less than superb equipment because the government machinery knows that the armed forces will perform even with mediocre equipment.

As far as procuring defence equipment goes, the armed forces should have the last say on what they want and not the babus.

Understand that it is the tax payers money being spent to protect the very tax payers.

So that the babus should not be allowed to get away with procuring sub standard equipment and take kickbacks in the process.

Of course the citizenry has no business in knowing doctrines but they should still be able to influence a country's national and international policies and should be informed on defence related procurement in a transparent manner, as the armed forces are instruments of implementing that policy and the tax payers money is spent on the implementations.

Of course we all know (or should know) that most of insurgencies and other troubles are results of misdirected policy decisions by successive governments

As for sniper rifles, luckily for us our armed forces are equipped with all the best sniper rifles from the world.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indi ... -army.html

M.

The Indian Army may not have the best equipment but they are second to none as far as tactics and hard core professionalism is concerned. I was once told of an incident by an Army officer of an Indian Army sniper who stayed immobile for a full 18 hours just to get that one shot at the enemy and did full justice to the shot! We have men who will deliver in the worst of circumstances!