Sharpening Systems

All Things Sharp and Pointed: compound and crossbows, knives and swords.
choombak
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Re: Sharpening Systems

Post by choombak » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:59 pm

tandavbaba wrote:Dear all,

I would like to share my views about sharping a knife,

Well it is good to keep it sharp but not extremely sharp

I have many reasons for that,
First of all if it gets blunt than you will be heart broken for some time and you might not be able to execute your cutting with a less sharp blade because you are habitual to the very sharp edge, and it also takes a lot of time to resharpen it to perfection, ive done it with ordinary oil stone found in hardware stone(use water instead of oil because oil will attract dust and you will end up wasting some more time with the stone), believe me you might spend 2 hrs doing it, hence keep it sharp not very sharp.
IMHO, it actually depends on the application -- "utility" edge, "razor" edge. The utility edge is not razor sharp, while a razor sharp edge can get blunt quickly. There is no question of getting heart broken if you have a good sharpening system, and skills.
I never use Factory made or imported knives, i get them constructed by a black smith and guide him to do the tempering as per my requirement,
I always use spring steel, its cheap easily available and its easy to construct knives,
i never prefer using stainless steel knives they look pretty but they are good for sailors and they have practically no use for someone who is far away from salty water and humidity, besides you always should remember to keep your knife out of your sheath and cover it with air tight plastic if not using it.

Please never use hollow grind or taper grind knife edges because it is very hard to sharpen them, it would be better for every beginner to use an axe grind or a convex grind.
While it is a good idea to get a knife locally made, there are many drawbacks - how do you assess the tempering temperature and if it was done right for your job? What if the blade turns out to be brittle? Our blacksmiths require many modern equipment to make this job easy and perfect -- but no one is willing to invest. Knife art is a dying breed in modern India, and it is ironic because we were one of the largest users of sharp weapons!

Stainless steels CAN and DO rust. With an exception of one or two steels, most SS knives can be easily damaged with salt water. There is many a superior quality SS available -- perfected by science that almost guarantees edge retention and strength.

Hollow grind is easy to sharpen in my opinion. Each grind has its own use and purpose, so there is no perfect grind - it depends on the job.
I make my own knife sheaths too i will soon upload some pics for you, and please do remember that the legal length and breadth of a knife in INDIA is 6 inch blade length and 2 inch in breadth, if you have anything more than that you might end up giving it to the Police walas, i don't know whats your idea about keeping a knife but i never keep a collectors item i usually use a cheap hammer forged knife with a nice sheath and wooden handle that i can use on a regular basis without giving any concern whether some cop will take it from me some day.
That is interesting -- we need people like you who can actually make good sheaths, please post the photos, and I am sure you'll have a bunch of orders to work on. :-)

Considering the en-masse corruption, a knife of length 0 and width 0 is also illegal if the cops want it to be -- you can be booked for carrying a knife when you don't have one. :-) A cheap knife is just that -- cheap. It will fail when you want it to, and if you are afraid of the cops taking it away, don't better keep any knife on you. IMHO, one should respect the law, and keep your temper in control, else you end up being a knife-wielding-monkey.
Please be Indian and give some money to the Indian Black smiths, the art of blade-forging is at the verge of extinction and we have to support our local blade-smiths, the grand masters are all dead, hence these black smiths might need a little bit of our supervision to craft a good blade, but in the end you will be much happy with a custom made knife specially made for you, hence avoid buying stuff from ebay, u might never know what you are buying and the worst part is that most of these factory made knives never have a heavy spine so go for a custom knife.
Sorry - I differ. My hard earned money goes to the best quality I can purchase in my constraint, be it Indian or not. Yes, if you find one blacksmith who can actually make quality knives, I'll surely purchase it from him.

Avoiding stuff from ebay is sane advice as chances of getting ripped off are very high. Plus our knife market is flooded with cheap Chinese knock-offs (and yes, Indian blacksmiths do make better knives than these). I'd say save money till you can afford a known good quality knife. There are many on this forum who are ready to help, both in terms of knowledge, and sourcing a good knife. Use their inputs. Remember, a sharp knife is a safe knife.
regards.

Vikas
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Re: Sharpening Systems

Post by Skyman » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:51 pm

Baba, no length is illegal unless otherwise specified in notifications issued by the govt.And surely, there are many good knives which are scientifically made world over.Do consider them.
I would rather hit my target gently than miss hard.

tandavbaba
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Re: Sharpening Systems

Post by tandavbaba » Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:18 am

Yes you are right there are some really good knife makers in the world but they all hand craft it, they do use the most sophisticated tools and equipment but still there is this genuine human factor involved....besides their might be some mass produced knives which are readily available but i dont think they will ever match a custom made knife by a real good blade-smith....

Most of the mass production knives will never have a quarter of an inch Spine....

and by the way are you saying we do need a permit to carry a knife too....if this is how it is that brother i am giving serious thoughts about joining Sikh religion .....no government can disarm a Sikh!...
yeah I'm serious.....
i know this might sound like a crack pot idea,
i am neither religious but the Sikh concept of self defense is way better than my religion (I am Hindu).
It's time to burn in HELL!!!!!!!

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Re: Sharpening Systems

Post by Rajat » Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:08 am

tandavbaba wrote: Most of the mass production knives will never have a quarter of an inch Spine....
Carefully chosen words! :) You are right "most" production knives do not have a 1/4" spine. This is due to several reasons: design, weight etc etc.

But did you hear of the Becker BK2, Esee 5, BRKT Bravo 1 & 2, STS 5, Fallkniven A1,A2, S1 ? These and many more have a spine with a similar thickness and are all mass produced knives.

There is a a lot more to a knife than the thickness of the spine. I hope you will agree to this.
Last edited by Rajat on Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

tandavbaba
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Re: Sharpening Systems

Post by tandavbaba » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:08 am

@Choombak
how do you assess the tempering temperature and if it was done right for your job? What if the blade turns out to be brittle?

All right you have asked the question that i was expecting from some one here, well brother initially that was a big problem for me too, then i studied more about steel and the color variations at different temperatures, i will give you a basic idea about how it is done...

Steps for tempering an already forged and hammered piece of knife....

1) Get it forged properly and give it the kind of length and shape that you desire, the tapering of the edge and the spine and the angle of the tip ....finally do check the handle length if it is a full tang knife.....

2) If everything is fine start the annealing process Heat it up in the "Wood" Charcoal furnace (Wood charcoal not the hard coal that people use in DHABAS) heat it till it turns orange and than let it cool off, do it three times and this will remove all the tension built in the steel due to hammering.

3) Now when steel si completely cooled re heat it to the color red than dip it in used Motor oil completely, i used Royal enfiled 20 w 50 from my motorcycle (make sure u dip it straight in with the handle out of oil tank and do not do too much hand movement or you might bend the blade while hardening) repeat this procedure 3 times now if you rub the steel with file you have a very hard glass like ever surface everywhere.

4) Rub the entire knife with a sand paper so that you can see the metal and do remove all the black surface because you need to see the temper colors.

5) Now the holy grail of Tempering is here baby---- prepare a small bed of coal and that is already burning (obviously) and than use something to hold your knife from the handle (Thongs* i am talking about the tool, pliers to hold the handle of your knife) and slowly keep the entire spine of the knife on the hot coal, the colors will start to appear and your soul aim is to keep it moving and bring a light brown color shade on the blade side and blue color on the spine and handle.....with some practice you will master the art of blade tempering ...

Why buy it when you can make it....and besides there is no such thing like a utility knife or something, i just distinguish them in between two broad segment, 1-Big knife, 2 small knife and remember a big knife can do a small job but a small knife cannot do a big job....so say goodbye to victorinox and tactical folders and make your own Full Tang Heavy Knife and than we will talk about who is the winner in the end..



Thanks for reading......
if you have questions you can ask.

Vikas

One the new comment---

And yes i choose my words very carefully thats why i always say most of the...not all of the.......
regards,

People I am an Indian man who knows how to make his own knife, who never relies on internet or postal services or some fancy shop for his knife who believes knifes can be made in your own back yard and any one among us can do it with ease......
:cheers:
It's time to burn in HELL!!!!!!!

tandavbaba
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Re: Sharpening Systems

Post by tandavbaba » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:16 am

The above tutorial has its own risks and hazards that's why i advise you all to start it with some black smith....
And I am honored to answer this question because i believe that it is something i am proud of, i will show you some pics of my personal knives that i have made.

I think you all dont know that I am from Kerala, and southern part of India is the birth place of crucible steel was discovered or invented, they used to make blades with carbon nano-tubes in that era, and the steel was known as WOOTZ steel and i am proud that i am partially decedent of such people who actually solved the riddle of steel (Yeah it was not Conan's Father---it was some madrasi in Tanjore)
.. :D he he eat your heart out
It's time to burn in HELL!!!!!!!

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Re: Sharpening Systems

Post by tandavbaba » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:24 am

Sorry - I differ. My hard earned money goes to the best quality I can purchase in my constraint, be it Indian or not. Yes, if you find one blacksmith who can actually make quality knives, I'll surely purchase it from him.
:deadhorse:

you give me 1200 and i will get you a finely tempered knife.....but i will only make it within 6 inches of blade..... give me the design and i will make it.....but please dont give me some Rambo Mumbo Jumbo serrated crap i cant make it it needs a lot of machining and i dont think you do believe serrated edges on the spine are useful.....lol i have seen urban boys using these knives, they cant even properly do batoning with that knife still they hang it like a dangler and flaunt it everywhere without knowing that i know that they are Knife n00BS...he he he
It's time to burn in HELL!!!!!!!

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Re: Sharpening Systems

Post by tandavbaba » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:53 am

@choombak
That is interesting -- we need people like you who can actually make good sheaths, please post the photos, and I am sure you'll have a bunch of orders to work on.
]

YAHOO!!!!!!!
ha ha ha......

Honestly brother i am a very lazy person but do tell me what kind of a sheath you like....besides i am not good in engraving or punching prints on leather never had the chance to learn that art, but i can make decent sheath out of raw hide and chrome tanned leather....
I will show you some of the pics of my sheaths soon.
It's time to burn in HELL!!!!!!!

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Re: Sharpening Systems

Post by tandavbaba » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:55 am

Hollow grind is easy to sharpen in my opinion. Each grind has its own use and purpose, so there is no perfect grind - it depends on the job
:agree:
It's time to burn in HELL!!!!!!!

tandavbaba
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Re: Sharpening Systems

Post by tandavbaba » Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:22 am

one should respect the law, and keep your temper in control, else you end up being a knife-wielding-monkey.
Brother I am the coolest man with a knife, i am a law abiding citizen of India i dont have a criminal record and i never got any traffic police Citation while riding My bike, I was raised among good people and never learned any martial art to defend myself but i am strong and i have proved it in past, i have a very vivid experience of life and i am not the luckiest or the richest man around here but i can be counted in the most content and happy men in my country.
It's time to burn in HELL!!!!!!!

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Re: Sharpening Systems

Post by Moin. » Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:39 am

tandavbaba wrote:The above tutorial has its own risks and hazards that's why i advise you all to start it with some black smith....
And I am honored to answer this question because i believe that it is something i am proud of, i will show you some pics of my personal knives that i have made.

I think you all dont know that I am from Kerala, and southern part of India is the birth place of crucible steel was discovered or invented, they used to make blades with carbon nano-tubes in that era, and the steel was known as WOOTZ steel and i am proud that i am partially decedent of such people who actually solved the riddle of steel (Yeah it was not Conan's Father---it was some madrasi in Tanjore)
.. :D he he eat your heart out

Great to have you here Tandavbaba(very interesting user name BTW :)) Let's the some pics of your knives done by your blacksmiths and the sheaths you have made. Some very good crafsmen in India, Jonapach had done the beyond awesome Mizo Bowie. I'm sure you have some great blades too.

Let's see some pics please.

Regards
Moin.
In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. Camus

tandavbaba
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Re: Sharpening Systems

Post by tandavbaba » Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:25 pm

Sure moin i will post my pics on Sunday......cos thats the only time i am close to my home pc.....currently i am working in Gurgaon,

By the way if any one has average knowledge of knife making and steel tempering he can get a fairly good quality knife for himself and we never have to pay for something that will always lack a personal touch........
It's time to burn in HELL!!!!!!!

tandavbaba
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Re: Sharpening Systems

Post by tandavbaba » Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:44 pm

@Choombak
if you have a good sharpening system, and skills.
Man i've got skills, i can sharpen my knives with pebbles.
I also use Industrial oil stones, but i use them with water.

I dont own a sword but apart from that i have sharpened everything from my moms Kitchen knife to Bill Hooks...you name it!

:twisted:
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tandavbaba
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Re: Sharpening Systems

Post by tandavbaba » Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:45 pm

As i have told you i get frustrated when my knife goes blunt not because i dont know how to resharpen it, its just because i am lazy..... :lol:
It's time to burn in HELL!!!!!!!

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Re: Sharpening Systems

Post by .32 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:28 pm

Since joining IFG, I've invested in a couple of knives & was on a lookout for a decent sharpening system. Gone throught the 3 pages of this thread, techniques, ways, etc. have been coming up but what still eludes are the names of sharpening systems that could be used by an amatuer & not spoil the knives. While giving good edges & not burning a hole in the pocket.

Guys suggest some good sharpners, easy to use for beginers, good on the knives & which do not cost a bomb...

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