M4: Govt. planning to equip our soldiers with these?

[Katana]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 370490.cms

Finally thinking of stopping the re-invention business for IOF? Atleast it takes the same round.

[gladiatorgarg]

its mainly for special forces not for other arms....donno till when we av to slog with INSAS

[hks2056]

It is an excellent rifle as confirmed by field use by US forces in Afghanistan. Our Special Forces deserve it. There is little point in reinventing the wheel in IOF Ishapore. May be they can produce it under licence if arms deal is signed for manufacture here in India.Sometimes being a copy cat is excellent.

[xl_target]

It is an excellent rifle as confirmed by field use by US forces in Afghanistan. Our Special Forces deserve it. There is little point in reinventing the wheel in IOF Ishapore. May be they can produce it under licence if arms deal is signed for manufacture here in India.Sometimes being a copy cat is excellent.

I don't think you want IOF to produce anything under license, at least not something that Indian soldiers will have to trust their lives with. They have shown that they cannot even be relied on to accurately reproduce Webley pistols that British factories started making in 1887.

[hks2056]

I partly agree with xl-target. It will be much cheaper to import M4 than to produce locally. If private manufacturer in India is given licence then they can surely produce a world class firearm in India. I am not referring to small time shotgun makers in the various parts of the country.In government sector also world class quality is possible. Take the example of ISRO, BHEL etc.. ISRO and BHEL are governed by the professionals. Wherever the professionalism occurs in India it undoubtedly world class. Regarding the quality of Pistol referred to by xl-target the problem lies in outsourcing of majority of components which are not produced in house in the factory.
The following extract is from the web site of MSF. http://www.msf.gov.in/about_us.htm. The barrels of field artillery guns in India are produced are. Which includes their rifling also. They are among the best in the world. The proof of this lies in the fact that since 1950 no field artillery gun barrel produced in MSF Ishapore has ever been discarded or junked and they are still in active service. HERE I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT RIFLE FACTORY ISHAPORE.The MSF is located right next door to much derided Rifle Factory. There are innumerable islands of excellence in India. We do not know them or come to know of them.

"Metal & Steel Factory Ishapore, under Ordnance Factory Board, Ministry of Defence, Government of India, is the main producer of basic Ferrous and Non-Ferrous raw material for military hardware.

Present day military hardware requires use of metals of high strength coupled with superior toughness.Combination of both these properties requires use of alloy steel of Super-ultra clean quality.

MSF has facilities for state-of-the-art steel making in the form of Electric Arc Furnace, Ladle Furnace Vacuum Degassing & Electro Steel Re melting ensuring production of Ultra clean steel.

A high capacity PLC-Controlled 2650T Forging Press with fully integrate and double manipulators gives shape to the products like Gun Barrels & other components of Artillery and Tank Guns. A state of art CNC-Controlled Redial Forging Press of 1250T for each hammers can forge various sections and profiles with high degree of isometric mechanical properties, near-net finish and repeatability.

The Factory also possesses a hot rolling mill, a high precision 2 hi / 4 hi combination cold rolling mill (setup in 2006) for making thin strips of ferrous and non-ferrous material with online x-ray and mechanical gauging system.

Precision controlled heat treatment facilities impart high Mechanical Properties in the metal, making it capable of performance under conditions of high stress.

Such integrated facilities for making, shaping & treating of Super-Ultra clean alloy steel-grades makes it possible to cater to any metallurgical need.

Production of steel cartridge cases starting from making of deep drawing quality steel (HSLA Grade) for forming the finished products is the major strength of the factory. MSF is the leader in this field.

Electric induction Brass Melting Furnaces produces high quality 60:40 with/without Pb Brass Billets/Pigs, Mn-brass etc.

Quality intelligence personnel with sophisticated machinery consisting of Ultrasonography, Laboratory Chemical Testing, Computer aided Spectrographic, XRF Spectrometry, Hydrogen Gas Analyser, and 3D coordinator for precision dimensional measurement etc.

LOCATION

Metal & Steel Factory, Ishapore is situated in West Bengal on the Eastern Bank of River Hoogly (Ganges) at a distance of 28 KM from Kolkata and is connected by Rail and Motor-Road. Nearest Airport Terminal is Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose Airport, Dum Dum.

HISTORICAL BACKGROUND

The factory has its origin as part of Gun & Shell Factory at Cossipore - then known as "Foundry and Shell Factory"- in the year 1872, when metallurgical operations by way of melting and rolling of Cartridge Brasses were first taken up. Subsequently in the year 1892, manufacture of steel was taken up when open-hearth steel making furnace was commissioned. With this, the first authentic production of steel was introduced in India. The Steel Rolling Mills were installed later on, in 1896. Further expansion of metallurgical activities necessitated shifting of metallurgical plants to Ishapore.

Relocated to its new site at Ishapore in the Year 1905, the Factory continued to function as a part of the Gun & Shell Factory, Cossipore. In 1920 it became an independent unit in the family of Ordnance Factories and had come to be known as "Metal & Steel Factory, Ishapore (MSF)" "

[xl_target]

If private manufacturer in India is given licence then they can surely produce a world class firearm in India. I am not referring to small time shotgun makers in the various parts of the country.In government sector also world class quality is possible. Take the example of ISRO, BHEL etc.. ISRO and BHEL are governed by the professionals. Wherever the professionalism occurs in India it undoubtedly world class.

Absolutely! I agree with you here.

Regarding the quality of Pistol referred to by xl-target the problem lies in outsourcing of majority of components which are not produced in house in the factory.

They will do the same thing for any small arms they produce. Regardless of any outsourcing, the end product is the responsibility of IOF and IMO, they have failed miserably to produce a product that would have much utility in today's world, except that people are forced to buy them as they have very few other choices.

Making Artillery tubes is a whole different ball of wax from making small arms. In the US, Artillery tubes and small arms are made in totally different facilities.

[ChaitanyaS]

The M4 is an excellent weapon. Accurate, compact and light weight but in Afghanistan and Iraq, questions have been raised about its reliability in the heat and dust and the ability of the 5.56mm cartridge to inflict sufficient damage especially at long distances. [Look up http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/ ... liability/]

I think it is more suited for CQB in urban scenarios. Dont know about the armed forces but it is already in use by our boys at Force One.

[Skyman]

If it is for special forces what about something like the SCAR? The m4 is an aging gun.

[spin_drift]

The M4 is an excellent weapon. Accurate, compact and light weight but in Afghanistan and Iraq, questions have been raised about its reliability in the heat and dust and the ability of the 5.56mm cartridge to inflict sufficient damage especially at long distances. [Look up http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/ ... liability/]

I think it is more suited for CQB in urban scenarios. Dont know about the armed forces but it is already in use by our boys at Force One.

Instead of 5.56 get it in 6.8

[timmy]

...but in Afghanistan and Iraq, questions have been raised about its reliability in the heat and dust...

A friend, a veteran of a tour in Kosovo, Afghanistan, and several trips to Iraq, told me one of the issues was not being able to get the right lubricant for the M4s. Soldiers would use WD40 to make do, and this would practically guarantee malfunction, as the WD40 attracted a great deal of dust. I admit, I'm not particularly fond of either the M4 or WD40, but in the case of the M4, it has been refined over many many years and does do the job if it is cared for. I could see it in special forces duty. The AK design came out of the gate being as reliable as a rock, but it will never deliver the accuracy of on M16/M4.

Personally, I think that the argument about cartridges is mostly a subject for the old stove society. There are so many different situations, such as open desert fighting, jungle fighting, close-quarters urban warfare -- and there's a better cartridge for each of these.

[cottage cheese]

The Special Forces (Paras) have already been using M4s for some time....pimped up examples at that....apart from the Tavor TAR-21s, Micro Uzis, Galash Sniper rifles ...and so on. Just last month myself and two other fellow IFG-ians from my neck of the woods had some fun with the Paras fancy hardware. Pretty up to date by our country's standards.

The Colt M4s were fitted out with Knight's Armament Rail Adapter System along with Vertical Forward pistol Grip, flip up rearsights from Knight's and what appeared to be EOTech Model 512 Holographic Sights...Magazines are standard 30 round STANAG ones with anti-tilt bright green colored followers, which were being used both in the TAVOR and the M4.

Ammo incidentally is also entirely imported...5.56mm, 9mm JHPs, match grade 7.62x51 (or would that be 308?)... all Israeli...even practice sessions appear to be fed entirely by imported fodder.....which broadly speaking, is pretty damning as regards KF fodder quality.

Hopefully some time in the near future I'll have the time to put together a short review of Indian SF hardware.

regards,
cc

[boris]

The M4 has been in use by the Army SF since a good amount of time.

In my view it is no doubt an excellent weapon,if cared properly it does the job well.

Some posters in defence forums who know jack about guns and think they are experts because they watch futurweapons and all were constantly bashing the M4 with the usual stuff about the weak 5.56 round,US SF thinking of replacing it.

As previously stated wonderful weapon if proper care is taken.

@Skyman

The SCAR is a good weapon,but the 5.56 version of the SCAR was not so impressive according to the US Army SF.They found the HK 416 better and hence many adopted that.The LWRC M6 is also heavily used by the US SF.

The SCAR was originally demanded by the Navy SEALs as they wanted a weapon that could fire immediately as soon as they surfaced out of water during an operation in a maritime environment.

Some criticisms include:
-Not Ergonomic enough.
-the charging handle comes back as the weapon is fired.

Eventually the US Army SF liked the 7.62 mm version and some numbers of the 5.56 version were retained.(Military deals have a lot of politics embedded in them).

@6.8 round

The 6.8 round has logistical issues.Say when the whole of NATO is using the 5.56 ,why would the US Army use the 6.8 round.Same can be said in the Indian Context.

The 5.56 round as many say is underpowered.Those critics are people who haven't served a day in the military or haven't been in combat.The 5.56 round drops people down well.Some people have a high tolerance to body trauma and the round sometimes even an AK round,.45 ACP might no drop them.Makes for a good story to bash the 5.56 round ,but it proves nothing.

The AK-47 as people say is inaccurate due to the 7.62 x 39 round,the funny thing is that the AK-103 uses the same round haven't heard the same complaints for that weapon.The AK issue is due to the fact that the rear and front sight are very close,hence any minor error in zeroing the weapon leads to inaccuracy.


What I want to add is never believe what discovery weapon shows say 100%.Most of the times it is publicity for the weapon system.In countries with relaxed gun laws the companies also sell semi-auto versions of weapons for civilian sales.If the Military rejects their weapon,they can sell it to civilians which is a profit for them.

I have seen experienced vets criticize the SCAR,Barrett(they prefer the Macmillan in .50) ,weapons which shows on TV show to be uber-elite but it isn't always so.