Imported vs. Indian Make Air Guns

[airgun_novice]

Examples of planes and trains are as (irr)relevant as those of imported cars and bikes in discussion on air rifles. Why not stick to airguns when you are discussing them?

Imported .22 cal or .177 air rifles in toto are not banned in India. Get one with you that sits within prescribed limits, pay the requisite duties and use it for anything that's not illegal. Get your facts rights before launching into any tirade. Do you understand what is written ? If so, you would have followed "...officially at least" part.

Now what makes you think that GOI policies/ laws on air rifles are based on their "killing-of-humans statistics" ? Getting a wee carried away here - for no rhyme or reason ? !

"Citizens of developed countries are preparing for Olympics with much superior weaponry ." Indian shooting athletes (who are Indian citizens) may have their woes; but so are they! GOI does not force them to compete or even practice with IHP/ IOF products.

[fantumfan2003]

That is non-sense......

If you are serious and persistent in your pursuit of shooting sport, it is not all that difficult to import a .177 air rifle by a registered rifle club member.

Most of the Indian laws are archaic and border on stupidity, but we have to obey them, regardless of our likes and dislikes and if one wishes for a better land to live, there is always stateside or down-under to migrate to.......

M.

Dear IFGians

For Ex: If i do online shopping of .177 calibre air guns and the company is in kolkatta wanted to shipping in chennai then it can be done and it says legal and doesn't require any legal formalities. The same calibre if i import from any foreign based air gun online shopping it requires lot of formalities to be done like club association membership, licence, etc. etc....why it is like this in india? Any way both are same calibre and mostly same power. why people?
Can any one through some light on this pls---->

[xl_target]

Most of the Indian laws are archaic and border on stupidity, but we have to obey them, regardless of our likes and dislikes and if one wishes for a better land to live, there is always stateside or down-under to migrate to.......

Thanks FF, for injecting a measure of reason into the discussion.

Guys, blaming Nehru or automobile import laws, is really a bit far fetched when talking about importing airguns. Both Esdee and FF gave good reasoned replies. As an aside, I would also like to mention that in the days when Pandit Nehru was PM, imported airguns were freely available in India. Please let's not bring politics or your perceptions of politics into this discussion.

[Humrahi]

We all know the need for membership in a Shooting club etc to import a .177 cal Air Rifle/Air Pistol w/o payment of duty. The issue was why we cannot a import .22 Air Rifle, since the Indian version of the same caliber is available here, which of course is good for nothing which cannot be used for any competitive shooting. The reason given earlier by some other person whose post now seems to have been deleted, was that that some imported .22 cal air rifle have velocity on par or exceeding .22 rim fire rifle and can be used for poaching ( in a Zoo maybe ! ). This is not as easy as it sounds and more over it is the bullet weight that counts and air rifles's pellet weight is < 1/2 of .22 rim fire rifle and therefore it does not have the penetration needed for a kill.

That is why I had compared Indian cars vs imported cars, example Ford Fiesta, Toyota , Chevy , Nissan, Honda etc , cars that are assembled in India ( no need to import ) and ply on the same roads and Indian made vehicles are no match against them. People do have accidents driving/riding imported vehicles, mostly due to rash & negligent attitude and drunken driving. If caught, they are booked under the appropriate IPC section , usually 304 A and jailed. So people who gets their hands on an imported .22 cal Air rifle and poach with it, they know the consequences if they are caught...so why the majority of shooters, who have no intention of breaking the law , should be prevented from importing it duty free, provided they have the required membership of shooting club etc ?

[Vikram]

The issue was why we cannot a import .22 Air Rifle, since the Indian version of the same caliber is available here, which of course is good for nothing which cannot be used for any competitive shooting. The reason given was that was that some imported .22 cal air rifle have velocity on par or exceeding .22 rim fire rifle and can be used for poaching.

Do you have a source to that explanation having been given anywhere? Please share with us where it was mentioned that .22 air rifles exceed .22lrs.

Humrahi, this is NOT aimed at you.

If someone actually used that tripe to ban import of .22 air rifles, they must have been smoking something real bad and complete ignoramuses about the thing they were to legislate about.Patently wrong and factually incorrect.

Best-
Vikram

[fantumfan2003]

The original poster does not mention .22 cal air rifles anywhere in his posts and .22 cal air rifles are not used in any form of competitive shooting in India. Even FT and HFT overseas and here prefer .177 cal.

I think .22 cal air rifles are marketed by unethitical dealers here to ignorant and/or ill-informed enthusiasts so they can make a killing and call it profit.

You might want to start another post in the appropriate section and air your views as to why you want a .22 cal and not a .177 cal air rifle /air pistol.

M.

The issue was why we cannot a import .22 Air Rifle, since the Indian version of the same caliber is available here, which of course is good for nothing which cannot be used for any competitive shooting.

[tirpassion]

Friends,

Air guns, if made tactfully, can be extremely dangerous. Big bore airguns existed in the 18th century and were meant for the Austrian army. The Girandoni system repeater air gun is perhaps the most famous.

I am sure that knowledgeable people can make them anywhere. .22 cal air rifles were meant for, if I am not wrong, to get rid of small rodents or to hunt down the odd wild fowl in the countryside. They were packed with sufficient power to do the job. However, the .177 cal is today the universally accepted caliber for the sports purpose.

As I could gather from the posts on the forum itself, a great AR is almost ready for official launch and it will have everything to challenge the imported ones. So let us be a bit more patient. 'Sabr ka meetha phal' is perhaps knocking at the door .

best regards
tirpassion

[airgun_novice]

humrahi, the imported v/s domestic pieces rules/ policies apply to practically all the consumer items. The foreign cars/ bikes in India are usually brought in "knocked-down" kits which are assembled in India - very rarely in entirety. This fact is known also to many of those who do not own imported bikes/ cars. This provides jobs to Indians and taxes to GOI. Duties on such "kits" is slightly less than 300% on Total Cost (MSRP+ freight + change in ransmission) which I was required to pay on my 1998 US-purchased Honda Accord EXL 6-cylinder VTEC fully loaded car way back in 2003. And it's not import fees alone - there's also excise, sales tax (now VAT as well in MH), RTO "test"/registration fees etc. to think of for a fully imported vehicle including your own which you might have rode for 5 years.

In a very small niche consumer segment like the sports-person, would such a step be feasible ? Would FWB or Ahg send their pieces to be assembled in India??? If so, would you buy them when the "purely original" is available from the source itself for literally zero import duty as a registered sportsperson ? Just to cite an example or two of your fave segment - in EU/ USA Mercedes offers 500000 (half a million) MILES bumper-to-bumper warranty - but the same (should actually use the word *similar*) product sold off in India does not have the same warranty. They expressly mention -> ***NFIR***. Honda cars carry 30000 MILE warranty in US - but in India they carry 30000 KM => You already lose 1.6 times here. I always wondered why not one Indian of some importance has ever raised this question since the price is practically same as that INR-USD conversion equivalent. Why are rules different here ?

Not every imported car is available in India for sale e.g. humvee, monster truck etc.

While your intentions may have been otherwise, the examples you cited - including the question on the statistic of air guns killing human are not only wrong but are potentially loaded with probabilities for mischief for anti-gun (any gun) lobby. These published on forum like IFG could cause quote/ reference in media that would potentially make life for genuine shooting sport lovers a tad tougher and miserable. FF et al have also covered the angle on misuse of .22 cal. Hunting is officially banned in India. Hence the "power" restrictions even on .177 cal. Same exist in some EU and other Western countries, I believe.

[Humrahi]

This reply is for Vikram. I have only qouted about this " .22 rim fire/.22cal air rifle ballistics " from earlier messages on this captioned subject. Just like you, I have never heard or read any official claim about it.

This is aimed @ airgun_novice. Just to clear it once and for all, if I want to buy a Toyota Camry car, or Ford Fiesta or Chevy Captiva or Honda Accord can I not go and buy it brand new from a dealer in my city ? Where does this 300 % import duty come from ? In India we have dealership to buy brand new Rolls Royce ! Where is the question of importing it ? Since India is not a consumer oriented society , the manufacturers " pretend to be customer friendly " but the last thing on their mind is to make/keep a customer happy ; customer service is a bad joke ! Therefore they do not provided that " extra warranty " which dealers in foreign countries do because of strong consumer protection laws in their country. Foreign banks, which operate in India are less " customer friendly " than they are in their own country for the same reason. Indian business philosophy of " tu nahi aur sahi, aur nahi aur sahi " ( meaning if not you, then some other customer, if not, some other customer and there is no dearth of customers in India : read population explosion in India ) We have consumer court, which is ineffective , unlike consumer protection laws , which are a deterrent !

Ex in India : Ballistol products (Germany) which can be bought from a dealer in Delhi and he can ship it to your home address any where in India ! Where is the question of importing it from Germany and your " favourite 300 % duty " ?

Finally, at the suggestion of " Fantum 2003 " that I should start a new forum on .22 cal air rifle and the need for importing it ! Well, for Metallic Silhouette Target shooting ( metal plates ) is done on an outdoor range where wind can be a factor and the minimum distance is 50 yards. The.177 cal air rifle is not at all suitable for this target shooting. The .22 caliber air rifle is minimum for it where Government " should decide " what is " good " for it's subjects ", otherwise .22 Rim fire rifle is minimum. I am sure there are quite a few shooting ranges here which can promote this tournament if there are sufficient participants. It can start with borrowed weapons on the range. All you need is to buy pellets there, a pay a nominal fee for participation and of course obey rules of the shooting range and be polite with fellow participants . No one is looking to make any money out of this tournament. It's all about having community fun , like a picnic w/o family.

Shooters in foreign countries, whose government trusts their citizen with superior weaponry, do it with high
power rifles, some at incredible distances ! Citizen have rights, subjects don't ! They can only complain, grumble and criticize each other while citizens of developed countries have fun to their heart's content because their is a mutual trust between the government policies regarding Citizens and most Citizens obey them.

Here you are guilty ( because you can ) unless proven innocent ( but I have not done it at all does not count ) and subjects have no problem accepting their fate and this perverted logic from India's erstwhile Colonial masters !!!

[airgun_novice]

Dear humrahi,

You indeed have a knack for digressing. You do not address contentious issues you raised in the first place and well-addressed and which have been pinpointed by others . You equate one thing with the other which are not even on parallel tracks, examples often go into nowhere. You speak of fantasies - not substantiated facts - which can be picked off this forum and published by mischief-mongers as "facts from a reputed forum like IFG" and thus get it and its members into allied trouble. On one hand you claim to know that genuine and registered sportsperson can get his .177 cal AP/ AR thanks to GOI rules but raise storm on high power .22 cal AR which are not used in any sporting range in India and often MIS-used for illegal activities (in India) like hunting. When FF points this out you have an issue with that too. You now cite example of Ballistol that has opened dealership in India - and yet do not follow the simple fact - not even logic - that a Ballistol product like any of its oils/ pellets is not a gun! You EQUATE OIL WITH A GUN ? You have the temerity of applying one set of rules to another disjoint situation - 300% duty et al on fully assembled foreign cars you link to Ballistol products ! You continue without reading or even trying to understand what the other party has written - get back to your argument what all imported cars you can buy in India - see what I have written about knocked down cars etc.

FF earlier had pointed to the effect that that irrespective of whether one likes or not if a country has laws then you have to obey them. My dear humrahi, your case does not stand - neither does any of your arguments. None of the IFGians you charged in so pompous a manner as guilty would even need to take the stand -

I have nothing more to add to this thread the start of which I mistook as ignorance (EXIM getting equated with local transport) and hence the participation. I also believe now that instead if a genuine interaction meant for extension of awareness/ knowledge/ information, you are interested only in baseless arguments directed towards mayhem.

Now the onus is on you, humrahi, to prove why should we not think of you as the one spreading misinformation, lawlessness, anarchy, instigation against the State (laws) etc. ?

[Humrahi]

Dear airgun_novice,

You are indeed a novice in this issue at hand. Let me explain.

1) In summary, all I wanted to portray was that the way imported cars/bikes are available in India through local dealership, some day someone gun dealer will get the proper license to import parts of air rifles, assemble them here and sell through our local gun shop. Ballistol company who, among other gun related products, imports German pellets for us which can be sent from Delhi to your address. For lack of better examples, I had to refer examples of dissimilar products. I hope you understand now.

2) You are obviously not aware of Metallic Silhouette Target shooting which is enjoyed in many developed countries where the minimum range is 50 yards and the minimum firearm is .22 rim fire rifle. Because of the draconian gun laws in India and the rigors of getting a gun license, if this form of target shooting is introduced here so that many people can participate , the minimum we should have is a .22 Cal Air rifle which we should be able to import since Indian version of it is useless. Do you follow now ?

3) India is the largest democratic country in the world where the will of the majority counts ! IFG is trying their best to legislate for sensible gun laws in this country so law abiding people should be able to enjoy shooting sports with appropriate weapons. Are you implying that they ( meaning most of it's members ) should be satisfied with existing gun laws ? Where did you come up with preposterous statements like in the last paragraph. Luckily we do not have many people like you who would bow to the existing gun laws which are against law abiding people and do nothing about it. If you cannot rise up to us, we will not stoop down for you ! You sound like a subject of a communist country ! Maybe that is your comfort level . So be it !

If it were for the likes of you, we would still be under the yoke of Colonial masters who held sway for two centuries by divide and rule policy and whose draconian gun laws we have inherited ! Their interpretation of law was that " you are guilty unless proven innocent ". That is their legacy of existing gun laws in India. It's time for a change in this Colonial law to read : " you are innocent unless proven guilty ". This is the spirit of the law for people who received freedom from oppression more than three decades ago and a change is long over due. Colonial masters never trusted their subjects with weapons.To paraphrase an old adage, " Fear the government that fears your guns ". Those days of darkness have receded decades ago and we are still under it's spell ! We are looking at that silver lining that will herald an era of freedom; in spirit and in letter. In this endeavor, we should all stand united for our common cause and claim it by unrelenting legislation through proper channel until our we achieve our objective. Once the legislation becomes law, no law abiding citizen will be denied a gun license. In the meantime, a P I L should be filed at the appropriate court to initiate of cause in the Judiciary.

Don't you think guys we should rally together for sensible gun laws in this country since we are not subjects of a Colonial rule anymore ?

Cheer up and keep that chin high !

[airgun_novice]

Sensible gun laws getting enacted are one thing, but when fools and mischief-mongers start arguing left, right and center, masquerading as knights in shining armor for honest folks, the Government gets a chance to enact restrictive regime, which most law-abiding citizens like me have to obey.

You have proven every point against you in my last mail.

I know it's meant to be sarcasm but please refrain from personal attacks. -Mod

[Humrahi]

Airgun_novice,

You are back again ? I thought you had enough of it , did you not ?

[essdee1972]

Dear Mods, this is getting into personal mudslinging. Request you to please lock this post.

Thanks!

[xl_target]

Don't you think guys we should rally together for sensible gun laws in this country since we are not subjects of a Colonial rule anymore ?

Most deiniitely!
Have you joined NAGRI?