Need help to buy a SHORT self defence gun

[Rajat]

You may also invest in a Maxpadition carry pack that affords you a very nice slide in Holster compartment and is very fast and easy to draw. These bags are comfortable to carry around all day in hot n humid areas. You could also stash away goodies like a collapsible baton, a nice sturdy folder, pepper spray and what not in the same bag to help you along on your adventures.

TC, the suggestion made earlier in this thread w.r.t getting a maxped bag with a built in holster is a sound one. You can see some of these bags in action at http://www.maxpedition.com/store/pc/Sit ... 12p926.htm . If you'd like to save a few bucks there are some Chicom copies of maxped bags available at dx.com/ other HK/ China online retailers (of course their quality will not be anywhere near the originals).

Maxpedition makes some great quality stuff. I use a couple of their versipacks and gearslingers and among my favorites is the Fatboy Versipack.

It is true that these are really very well built and well organised i.e. with a pocket or compartment for just about anything. Further, you may even add on various modular pouches and cases etc to it.

The holster is not really built in these but these are designed to carry handguns with the help of their universal CCW Holster which is available as an accessory: http://www.maxpedition.com/store/pc/UNI ... ER-p48.htm

This holster holds the gun in the desired position and location so you do not have to fumble around in case you need and need it really fast. Apart from this it is quite discreet.

There are several other addons available for their bags.

[TC]

TC,
I would like to (respectfully) submit some thoughts for your consideration.

I would suggest that before you go ahead and make these changes to your shotgun, that you try and fire a pistol-grip only shotgun. There are certain disadvantages that may outweigh the advantages.

It is unpleasant to shoot with anything but light loads. With slugs, its brutal. I understand that you may not be able to get slugs in India but you would still be limiting your options. A PG only shotgun is generally only good for breaching doors or firing flares.

PG only shotguns are usually fired from the hip. Regardless of how cool (and easy to shoot) it looks on the silver screen, it is hard to hit anything beyond five yards when doing that. If you do hold it up and try to sight down the rib, you risk a broken nose or the loss of teeth. If you don't try to use the bead, even at close range, a miss is quite likely. Keep in mind that there is little or no spread or pattern at five yards.

If you are adamant that you are going to get a short shotgun, leave some semblance of butt on it so it can be shouldered. You might at least consider a folding stock, in addition of a PG, so it can be shouldered. That would give you the best of both worlds. Personally, I wouldn't have a PG on a shogun, even if it had a full stock. The lateral forces on your wrist are painful when firing with a PG.

Knoxx does make a "Breachers Grip" that is supposed to reduce recoil by 65%. I've never used one of them, so I can't comment but I have fired a full length Knoxx stock and it does reduce recoil. Still the Breacher's grip doesn't address the aiming dilemma. If you can't hit your target, you just have a very loud club.

XL, I appreciate your well thought out suggestions and fully agree. Thank you.
To start with, I have already checked with a number of dealers in Kolkata and UP. Most of the 21 inch PG only shotguns are not worth buying because their quality and finish is BAD and effectively, DOUBTFUL !! I held at least five models and even without firing I realised the cons. Now I am looking at the short double barrels with stock. These are a little better but cannot be compared to an Ithaca or Mossberg ( I have fired both in pump actions). Fitting Knoxx grips/ stocks to any of the desi guns will be very difficult if my experience is of any use. So, my friend I am left with little choice.
Will keep you posted

Cheers

TC

[TC]

Hello TC!

Glad I could be of help.
I am telling you to stay off all pistol grip models including Oriental's.Incase the situation demands for you to pull out the shotgun and fire and hit an object, I have a doubt if it can be achieved with shoutgun with a pistol grip.
A pistol grip shotgun loaded with even BBs can get clumbersome to use effectively.
Trust me - the short single barreled Oriental made gun with a full stock which I field carry has a number of times become my primary weapon and has got me out of situations.I infact dismantel the whole weapon and carry it in a canvas roll up attached to my backpack.

Nitro Express

Thank you Nitro Express
Point taken and much appreciated. You can go through my reply to XL Target.

Cheers
TC

[TC]

Kindly don't mind , but this logic is hard to understand, I don't want to carry a handgun it is not convenient, instead I'll carry a SHORT shot gun

You my friend, have hit the nail right on the head.
TC's quest is puzzling indeed

only 32 owner and hamiclar01,

I can understand that some people find it tough to get to the logic. Let me put it this way.
I am 45 years old. When I was 22 I had my first handgun, a .32 Bernardelli pistol. Since then I have bought and sold several handguns and two rifles. You could say after 23 years I am a little tired of packing steel when I am supposed to be having fun with family and friends, play with kids or go for a swim in the river - something that is is more important than guns at that point of time. What I have written in this thread has nothing to do with firepower. All I am looking for is a short reliable shotgun that I may never have to use but only carry occasionally for safety's sake.
If I don't find one - and it seems the choice is getting narrower each day - then I will stick to my handguns.

Hope I could explain.

Cheers
TC

[TC]

You may also invest in a Maxpadition carry pack that affords you a very nice slide in Holster compartment and is very fast and easy to draw. These bags are comfortable to carry around all day in hot n humid areas. You could also stash away goodies like a collapsible baton, a nice sturdy folder, pepper spray and what not in the same bag to help you along on your adventures.

TC, the suggestion made earlier in this thread w.r.t getting a maxped bag with a built in holster is a sound one. You can see some of these bags in action at http://www.maxpedition.com/store/pc/Sit ... 12p926.htm . If you'd like to save a few bucks there are some Chicom copies of maxped bags available at dx.com/ other HK/ China online retailers (of course their quality will not be anywhere near the originals).

Maxpedition makes some great quality stuff. I use a couple of their versipacks and gearslingers and among my favorites is the Fatboy Versipack.

It is true that these are really very well built and well organised i.e. with a pocket or compartment for just about anything. Further, you may even add on various modular pouches and cases etc to it.

The holster is not really built in these but these are designed to carry handguns with the help of their universal CCW Holster which is available as an accessory: http://www.maxpedition.com/store/pc/UNI ... ER-p48.htm

This holster holds the gun in the desired position and location so you do not have to fumble around in case you need and need it really fast. Apart from this it is quite discreet.

There are several other addons available for their bags.

Thanks Abhijeet, Rajat and Bruno 22. I will certainly check these out.

Cheers
TC

[YogiBear]

Aloha,

This is most likely what the OP was dreaming about:

http://www.remingtonle.com/shotguns/870mcs.htm

the MCS CQB 14, Law Enforcement Only

What is normally availible thru normal civilian channels:

http://www.remington.com/product-famili ... tguns.aspx

Personally, having used a Remington 12 ga with 18" barrel, extended magazine, folding buttstock with #4 buck

in 3 gun matches years ago, I can tell you that shooting one regularly is No Fun. Gets painful after a while.

For home defense, this is what I got the Wife:

Cut down Browing Citori 20 ga, no choke. Barrel was cut to barely legal limits.
For me, I like a 38/357 Smith & Wesson with Crimson Trace laser grip.



Inside of of 7 yards or so, the pellet spread on a shotgun with no choke is not that much.

[hamiclar01]

Cut down Browing Citori 20 ga, no choke. Barrel was cut to barely legal limits.
For me, I like a 38/357 Smith & Wesson with Crimson Trace laser grip.

Hmm, TC has already excluded handguns, and 20G isn't a viable option in India.
Please elaborate "barely legal". I ask because arms acts offences can land us Indians in very hot water, and we don't want that do we?
BTW, who did the cutting?

[xl_target]

Please elaborate "barely legal". I ask because arms acts offences can land us Indians in very hot water, and we don't want that do we?

By barely legal, he means the length of the shotgun barrel is just over 18 inches.
A legal barrel length would be 18 inches or more. The overall length of the weapon must be 26 inches or more.

These rules are specific to the US. I do not know what restrictions other countries have on shotguns.

[winnie_the_pooh]

TC,

I would suggest an external hammer shotgun with rebounding hammers.You can leave it loaded.No pressure on any spring and it is a simple procedure to cock the hammers and fire it.

Shotguns with external hammers should be relatively cheap.

[TC]

Please elaborate "barely legal". I ask because arms acts offences can land us Indians in very hot water, and we don't want that do we?

By barely legal, he means the length of the shotgun barrel is just over 18 inches.
A legal barrel length would be 18 inches or more. The overall length of the weapon must be 26 inches or more.

These rules are specific to the US. I do not know what restrictions other countries have on shotguns.

XL

In India that would be at least 21 inch barrel for a "legal" shotgun. Some members here had mentioned 20 inch but Arms Act inspectors at Police headquarters here and gun dealers say it has to be 21 inch.

Cheers
TC

Cut down Browing Citori 20 ga, no choke. Barrel was cut to barely legal limits.
For me, I like a 38/357 Smith & Wesson with Crimson Trace laser grip.

Hmm, TC has already excluded handguns, and 20G isn't a viable option in India.
Please elaborate "barely legal". I ask because arms acts offences can land us Indians in very hot water, and we don't want that do we?
BTW, who did the cutting?

Thanks hamiclar01,
Ya, 20 gauge is not an option in India.

Cheers TC

YogiBear, thanks for the suggestions but as XL and hamiclar01 have pointed out, shotguns and hacksaws do not make a welcome combination in the Indian legal arena. But I do agree that a chopping down a non-choke barrel could be an option on foreign shores.

Cheers
TC

[hamiclar01]

TC,

I would suggest an external hammer shotgun with rebounding hammers.You can leave it loaded.No pressure on any spring and it is a simple procedure to cock the hammers and fire it.

Shotguns with external hammers should be relatively cheap.

I am a big fan of hammers, the only catch being, most of them are non ejectors. Will this not slow reloading in self defence situations, not to mention manual cocking for the third and fourth shots

[TC]

TC,

I would suggest an external hammer shotgun with rebounding hammers.You can leave it loaded.No pressure on any spring and it is a simple procedure to cock the hammers and fire it.

Shotguns with external hammers should be relatively cheap.

Winnie you seem to have read my thoughts.
Last night I was remembering my granddad's ( also my dad's on a second licence available those days) Jeffrey 12 bore with rebounding hammer. It had a 32 inch barrel and was the entire family''s gun for pot shot during hunting seasons. It was the first shotgun I fired. Pa told me that grandpa bought it for 40 bucks second hand from a friend. Grandpa and dad sent a few thousand rounds through it (my mom testifies because she paid the price in the kitchen with her assistants ).
What I distinctly remember is that on the field elders always carried the gun slung over the shoulder with rounds in the chamber and the hammer down. The Jeffrey didn't have an ejector but that did not seem to matter much. I saw grandpa, my uncles and dad throwing out the empties and reloading it in seconds. After grandpa and, years later, dad passed away I had to sell it off. A dealer in Kolkata gave me Rs 25K.. that was in 1998.

It seems I have to get it (or its sibling ) back but then again it will not be "legally" short !!

Thanks Winnie
Cheers

TC

[mundaire]

One more thing struck me (somewhat late) w.r.t carrying a short Indian made DBBL shotgun in your backback/ bag - I don't think any Indian company (& most/ all old imported shotguns currently circulating in the Indian market) has safety's which block the firing pin, all of them use simple trigger block safety's. So (hypothetically) with the gun loaded and safety on, if the bag took a knock or two - you could possibly have an accidental discharge! Not a happy situation...

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[goodboy_mentor]

Some members here had mentioned 20 inch but Arms Act inspectors at Police headquarters here and gun dealers say it has to be 21 inch.

To be npb the barrel should be not less than twenty inches in length. This can be confirmed by reading Section 13(3)(a)(i) of Arms Act 1959 and Category 1(b) of Schedule - 1 of Arms Rules 1962.

[TC]

Some members here had mentioned 20 inch but Arms Act inspectors at Police headquarters here and gun dealers say it has to be 21 inch.

To be npb the barrel should be not less than twenty inches in length. This can be confirmed by reading Section 13(3)(a)(i) of Arms Act 1959 and Category 1(b) of Schedule - 1 of Arms Rules 1962.

That's the reason why all Indian "legally short" guns have 21 inch barrels. After all who would take the trouble of manufacturing 21.5 inch barrel !! half an inch more wouldn't make much difference anyway. Rather, it makes machining easier.