250 by 3000 Double Barrel Rifle

[rns188]

Hello everyone,
I have a 250 by 3000 double barrel rifle and the problem is that i am not being able to identify the gunmaker.The rifle has five leaf sights bearing 100,200,300,400 and 500 yards.On top of the barrel its written "Made in Germany".It has a box lock system.On the underside of the barrel its written "gussstahl krupp esseit"So could anyone plzz help me identify the Makers of the rifle......

[Vikram]

Is it possible for you to post a few pics of the rifle with all the markings clearly visible?

[rns188]

http://imageshack.us/g/151/img4130x.jpg/
The above is the link to the pics of the rifle.

[Vikram]

Interesting little double rifle there. Looks like a German Suhl guild gun to me. It was normal for many of those guns to turn up without a maker's name as often different parts were made by different craftsmen and assembled and sold through retailers.

Is it possible for you to take a clear picture of the proof marks and the rest of the pictures in some day light?Like this



The German words you see are nothing but the type of steel used.Krupp steel in Essen.

Best-
Vikram

[rns188]

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/3461/img4149gy.jpg
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/3056/img4148r.jpg
http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/3299/img4147a.jpg

The best pics i could take....hope they present a clearer picture.How much would this rifle fetch in Indian market these days.I have 25 rounds of it left.

Thnx for the info,
rns188

[TwoRivers]

ms188: How did you come up with the designation "250 by 3000". What is that supposed to mean?

[Vikram]

Had an exchange with the "infinitely more knowledgeable than me Grumpy".

As I said earlier, the rifle almost certainly is a guild gun means various parts were made by various craftsmen and assembled at one point.That does not mean that the gun is cheaply made.Some very fine guns are made there much like in Birmingham,UK or Liege in Belgium or St.Etinenne in France.It is very common for the German guild guns not to have a maker's name.

The proof marks really sent me for a sixer.If there is a nitro proof mark, I could not see it and what are there are poorly struck or worn off.

Made in August 1926 in all likelihood.

This is the best I could tell you about the rifle.

I really wonder why such a high velocity small calibre cartridge is chambered in a double rifle. TwoRivers, help me out please?

The cartridge itself is still in production albeit only for the dedicated followers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.250-3000_Savage

The value of your rifle? Depends on what you want for it and what the buyer wants to pay for it.In Indian market, there are no fixed prices for rifles and cartridges like this.You may get Rs.25,000 or Rs.2.5lakh.I do not know.I would say that if you like fine guns,hang on to it.If possible,have it restored by a gunsmith who knows his job.If worked on properly,your rifle will look a lot better. Try to get Cottagecheese,a member and Mod here, respond.

Best-
Vikram

[Grumpy]

I`ve seen double rifles in .22 Hornet so .250-3000 ( .250 Savage ) is not too peculiar - I`ve even read of - but not seen - .22 lr double rifles.
Why so many German Guild guns were built with no makers name I have no idea. This one is decidedly strange looking ..... but some German guns were. There is no chance of attributing a maker to this gun - it is what it is .................and what it is, is anonymous.
Proof marks can only give you so much information. The old German marks were better than most but even so the marks were often mis-struck, omitted or even incorrect.

[pelle]

A lovely "Clamshell" action.German buildt,and proofed.I think it was buildt for export,as to the marking on the top rib.(Made in Germany...??) Looks like typical british express sights.This kind of sights with several leaves were not so common in Europe.

[TwoRivers]

Had an exchange with the "infinitely more knowledgeable than me Grumpy".

I really wonder why such a high velocity small calibre cartridge is chambered in a double rifle. TwoRivers, help me out please?

The cartridge itself is still in production albeit only for the dedicated followers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.250-3000_Savage



Best-
Vikram

Yes, I wondered, too. At one time the manufacture of break-open rifles was not permitted for rimless cartridges in Germany. Hence all the rimmed counterparts of "Mauser" cartridges. Which would likely make it a special order export item. For someone who was enthralled with his Savage M99 in .250, but wanted a double. Certainly not a usual or common chambering for a double.

[Grumpy]

Yes ...... good point. As I said, small calibre double rifles WERE built - mostly in Germany but also in Belgium and Austria ..... and post-WWII by Brno in Czechoslovakia. Vikram and I had a discussion about the lack of a calibre proof stamp which should be somewhere about 6.35 mm ..... and there appears to be a 63 ( 6.3 ? ) stamp HOWEVER it didn`t occur to me that the rifle might not actually be in 250-3000. I`ve now checked and the bullet diameter of the 250-3000 is 6.6mm. It might be significant that there never was a European metric designation for the 250-3000 ..........
If the rifle is not a 250-3000 then there are two likely candidates - the 5.6x50R and the .22 Savage High Power. There are 56 ( 5.6 ? ) stamps on the gun in more than one place. The .22 High Power HAS a metric designation - the 5.6x52 - and was quite popular in Europe for use in double rifles/Drillings/Bergstutzens/Kipplaufs/etc. Although .22 Savage High Power ammunition hasn`t been produced in the USA for several years it is still manufactured in Europe and Scandinavia. I`ve seen double rifles in both the 5.6x50R and 5.6x52R.
Why the .22 Savage High Power gained a degree of popularity in Europe I have no idea.
Why a small calibre double rifle ? Why not ? Double rifles are used far more commonly in Europe than in the UK and US where they are considered as suitable for African big game only ...... although there is a trend in the UK for their use on Wild Boar in smaller calibres - mostly 30-06 and 9.3x74R - nowadays. Most manufacturers of O/U double rifles offer calibres from the 6.5x55 SE ( .264" ) upwards. A double rifle can be very accurate ........ from either barrel - the problem is in getting tight groups barrel to barrel.
The main usage of the 5.6x50R and 5.6x52R is on Chamois by the way.
Basically we need to know if the 250-3000 ammo actually fits the chambers of the rifle .........

[rns188]

Thnx for the replies frnds (especially Vikram).The rifle has "Nitro N" written on the both the barrels.This is pic showing it - http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/7784/img4173p.jpg

[TwoRivers]

The rifle obviously precedes the introduction of the 5.6x50R (1960s) by many years. The extractors show that it is made for a rimless cartridge, so that eliminates the the .22 Savage as well.
Like the rest of American high power .25 calibers, bore is 6.35mm/.250", groove 6.53mm/.257". Max bullet diameter is 6.55mm/.258".
Both the 5.6x50 (R), and .5.6x52R/.22 Savage HP cartridges are meant for roe deer. Chamois is a long range proposition and requires a more powerful cartridge. In Germany, neither cartridge would be legal for chamois under current game laws.

[Vikram]

Thnx for the replies frnds (especially Vikram).The rifle has "Nitro N" written on the both the barrels.This is pic showing it - http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/7784/img4173p.jpg

You are welcome. I found a double rifle in the same calibre but made by Westley Richards.It's up for $18,000 in USA!But,that bad boy is in real great shape,almost like new.Remember, you are not in USA and you may/will not get that kind of prices.

Best-
Vikram

[winnie_the_pooh]

Vikram,

If it is not too much botheration,can you post a link to the rifle that is for sale? 250-3000 ammo is difficult to get.Getting some that will regulate in a double would be virtually impossible,unless you are incredibly lucky.

rns188,you have a nice looking rifle there.More of a showpiece now,considering the ammo situation.A pity.