What is more sad?

[MoA]

The UK is a nanny state, full of paper liberals who have no idea of how the world operates. It amazes me to no end that this country of sheeple could once boast 'The Sun never sets on the British Empire.'

They certainly would have not managed it with the current crop of so called citizens that populate the island.

[airgun_novice]

I do not think he was able to do any civic duty. Instead he ended up being a patient. He would have been in a position to do civic duty if he had been armed to defend himself in the first place and had tried calling police instead.

+1 He should have called in the cops.
Also the Q is - Was he the only neighbor in the 'hood ? Is so, why did he shout for help ? If not, what were the rest of the neighbors doing ?

Long live RKBA! But now think of this - if there was an RKBA in HM's England and our genteel had his firearm. But so would the goons! They might in fact have at least one firearm and chose the blade only because the dude did not pump out his gun. How many of the goons were there ? From the account at least two. Still with or without guns - heavy odds. Remember the goons did not flee at the alarm raised but they returned to finish off the guy and again to commit 6 more similar crimes. Not too sure that in this circumstances RKBA would have given our hero the edge. Even the Castle Doctrine allows one to use arms for defense when his personal property is invaded, not neighbors. Yup ! He should have called the cops and left it at that. BTW, my Qs above on the neighbors remain un-answered.

Better still there must be instituted a neighborhood protection program in England (if it does not exist) and even in India along lines of the one in several US cities. While neighbors are not required to fight it out, the cops respond rather immediately to such calls. Some areas in some cities of India the police have constituted "Mohalla Committees" but they are supposedly largely for tips on miscreants during religious festivals.

[Vikram]

It is easy to second guess in retrospective wisdom. I agree that the victim should have called police.

I find it hard that the hunter friend would not think about defending himself with a firearm.Again, in UK,gun licenses are not issued for self-defence.Having said that, English law does allow use of justifiable force in case of self-defence.One cannot,however, use disproportionate force which is interpreted on circumstantial evidence. I am somewhat less clear about what happens when one uses a licensed firearm in an unavoidable self-defence situation.I think it is accepted as valid.

Having a gun is not enough.Even if you have a gun and not prepared to use it,it can have disastrous consequences like in this instance

http://www.newson6.com/Global/story.asp?S=13426170

Tulsa Man Killed Protecting Neighbor's Home Was 'Good Man, Good Neighbor'


Police said it all started when a man crashed a truck into a brick wall early Monday morning.

Lori Fullbright, News On 6
TULSA, Oklahoma -- A Good Samaritan who was trying to help his neighbor was shot and killed Monday with his own gun.

Mark Miller's friends say they're not surprised he was trying to help someone, because that was his personality.

Police are still trying to put together the details of this case, but they do have a theory and once you hear it, it makes you realize, how truly how senseless Mark's death is.

The day started when a man crashed his truck into a brick wall at the Kendalwood Townhomes near 51st and Yale before sunup.

"The newspaper man went to see if he could help because the guy was bleeding but he was belligerent and pulled a gun," Linda Larson, a neighbor, said.

Neighbors say Miller, 53, came outside to check the damage and began taking pictures. But, the man who had crashed took off.

Police say a few hours later, the man came back and broke into one of the townhouses. They suspect he was after those pictures, but broke into the place next door.

Neighbors say Mark heard the alarm going off, called the owner who was at work and asked if he could go in and look around and she said yes. They say he realized her front door was open, so he called police, then got his gun and went next door to check. Then neighbors said they heard two shots.

"We kept saying where's Mark? He wouldn't just run away, where's Mark?" said Kay DeWitt, a neighbor.

They soon learned the burglar had taken the gun away from Mark and shot and killed him in the parking lot behind the townhouses.

"It's a shock, it's a shock," said Tom Novak.

Tom owns Brookside by Day and says Mark came in often to drink coffee. Plus, they were neighbors.

He said Mark was a quiet guy who was always willing to help anyone who needed it.

"Mark was a good man, a good neighbor," he said.

Officers arrested the suspect, Joe Nevels, not far away. They said they had to taser him when he resisted arrest and that it seemed he had some self-inflicted wounds on him.

He'll be booked into jail after he's released from the hospital, likely on Tuesday.

[shooter]

dear airgun novice,

When you asked the questions, I presumed it was rhetoric but when you say your questions remain unanswered, I realised you actually want answers.

I can presume that he wasnt the only neighbour (judging by where he lives)

As to what the others were doing, I dont know and I am not sure how to find out. Neither the victim nor I can go around asking all the neighbours what they were doing on that particular night so many years ago.

Vikram, what you are saying is true. But its mostly true on paper. "Dispropornate force" argument is almost always against the defender.

There have been so many victims of burglaries who are in proson as they used gun against knife.
there was another one (I think i posted it here_ where a bangladeshi man was imrisoned after he hit a burglar on the skull on the baseball bat. (This burglar had been CONVICTED 42 times in the past).

According to the police, if the perps have a knife, i must defend myself with a knife. Machete with a machate.

[ak27]

According to the police, if the perps have a knife, i must defend myself with a knife. Machete with a machate.

Is it a self-defense situation or an MMA Fight?!

Not cool man, not cool!

[Bhargav]

I would say before jumping into a fight it is wise to judge the situation. It's difficult to take out 6 guys inside a house when you are alone unless you are professionally trained.

The best thing he could have done was to wait in silence with a loaded gun and had called the police.

[goodboy_mentor]

According to the police, if the perps have a knife, i must defend myself with a knife. Machete with a machate.

It appears something is very seriously flawed with the mindset of police or the law in U.K. Self defense is not a sports contest that is to be fought with niceties of rules and regulations of a sports contest. When your life and property is at risk, should be using the best and most effective tools to neutralize the attackers. BTW what they say if attacked by multiple attackers? Still use knife for every knife, machete for every machete?

[airgun_novice]

Dear Shooter, You are right - earlier I had meant it to be a rhetoric but as I mused over the scenario putting me in place then it suddenly wasn't. Presumably that would have been the first line of interrogation for even a doc (let alone law enforcement). True one can not go around that place asking Qs but putting the Qs to the patient or his relatives (family) would enable the doc to understand the frame of mind of the patient. That frame will inherently stay, even if it does dormant. That could open an avenue for treatment and path to recovery. Of course I could be wrong. But to think that a law abiding civilized society staying mum and having their neighbor get it at the hands of goons is pathetic. This is of course assuming that there were other neighbors then.

[shooter]

According to the police, if the perps have a knife, i must defend myself with a knife. Machete with a machate.

It appears something is very seriously flawed with the mindset of police or the law in U.K. Self defense is not a sports contest that is to be fought with niceties of rules and regulations of a sports contest. When your life and property is at risk, should be using the best and most effective tools to neutralize the attackers. BTW what they say if attacked by multiple attackers? Still use knife for every knife, machete for every machete?

Youre right GBM.

I wish I had these answers.

What I can say for sure is as follows.

One cant apply for license for self defence under ANY circumstances.
For self defence one must use "reasonable force". This definition is subject to interpretation. The jury is also composed of media influenced people. Alas the poor burglar becomes victim and the defender becomes the perp.

[airgun_novice]

According to the police, if the perps have a knife, i must defend myself with a knife. Machete with a machate.

It appears something is very seriously flawed with the mindset of police or the law in U.K. Self defense is not a sports contest that is to be fought with niceties of rules and regulations of a sports contest. When your life and property is at risk, should be using the best and most effective tools to neutralize the attackers. BTW what they say if attacked by multiple attackers? Still use knife for every knife, machete for every machete?

A good point to ponder upon. Under the excuse of keeping violence at bay; the society is taught not to think along these lines.

Incidentally, I revisited this thread mentally while watching Charles Bronson's Death Wish (I (1974) & II (1982)) last night/ today afternoon and what his character did there made some sense and yet the cops in the movie were trying to put "the vigilante" down. Ironically the NYPD CP who goes on a witch hunt against the vigilante gets shot mortally by a goon (in part II) and in dying moments tells the hero "Go - get that b@$*@*d." Took him a few slugs in his guts and 8 years to appreciate the work of the vigilante.

[fantumfan2003]

The brave soul took some initiative instead of calling the Police. Instead of commending it, we are being judgemental, in hindsight, I might add. Are we not ?

Even in our country an incident such as this one will result in the first reaction being, people shouting "chor, chor, chor...." right ?

I agree with the vigilante squad idea as suggested by AGN. We had a similar one in Nairobi by a local asian community there......It worked some times, and sometimes did not, but at least gave asian folks a sense of security in their areas.

And shame on the British Police again for not apprehending the perps.........

M.

[shooter]

dear Airgun novice,

"what were the neighbours doing" would not be a first line (or even second or third line) of questioning either from plastic surgery, maxillofacial surgery, neurosurgery, neurology, psychiatry nor substance misuse point of view.

[airgun_novice]

Ah - I see. I was thinking more from counselling and psychiatry perspective; not surgical. More like "What prompted you into taking unneeded risks - unarmed - when the neighbors didn't ?" May be he could have been made to see sense - ot that he is going to attempt it again; but then you never know.

[Priyan]

In UK defending yourself is a crime? This might happen soon, sorry to break it to ya shooter paaji, but you may lose your right to bear arm soon if you guys don't act fast.

[shooter]

Priyan I am aware of this and trying to fight a losing battle as the masses agree with gun control (and so do many shooters).

I will right a thread about attitude of people of different countries towards control.