India’s quest for the top gun !! Selection Procedures of Arm

[Ravindrane]

Hi Vishalk Very nice article. Looking for more of such articles.

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Note:
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Hello everyone,
I am quite astonished to find so many fighter enthusiasts here; that is why (apart from the reason that Tomorrow is off-day for me) I take the privilege to reply independently to each and every contributor here.

Excellent write up... Thanks for sharing all this information

Hi Sonny,
Thanks for the attention and your valuable time for posting.
Ciao

Though I was supporting the Typhoon I am still happy the Rafale has been selected,I heard that the Navy might be interested in the F-35 for the New domestically produced aircraft carriers

Hi Boris,
I do also have a distinct liking for the latest Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) F-35; Lockheed Martin. In the platter US also served formidable Stinger, air-to-air missiles (AAMs) for India’s Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) being developed by HAL.
F - 35, however, completed its first night flight in the history of the Lockheed Martin F-35 program. It was completed on 19 Jan, 2012 in the skies above Edwards Air Force Base, Calif. Piloted by Lockheed Martin Test Pilot Mark Ward, AF-6, an F-35A conventional takeoff and landing (CTOL) variant, launched at 5:05 p.m. PST and landed after sunset at 6:22 p.m.
As far as requirements are concerned; Indian Navy is set to have 100-plus combat jets, as part of an assortment of its own mostly ship-board capable air force of some 500 aircraft and helicopters.
Also while considering the Typhoon as a contender the major advantage which Rafale has got is Diplomatic relations with France, because Eurofighter is built by a consortium of four countries -- UK, Italy, Spain and Germany -- whereas the Rafale is a French aircraft developed by Dassault Aviation and is very well understood that maintaining the relation with these four countries is considered very difficult against maintaining healthy relationship with just one.
Also it may lead to several problematic & awkward situations, e.g., future relationship with Russia will be majorly effected because of Germany's influence, the defense deals are long term deals and these points has to be considered well before finalising and not just the fire power. Well, this is just an example; there are several issues which has to be well thought of before signing a check.

However, It will be interesting to read what swayed the decision towards the Rafale and not the Typhoon as cost for the entire package was cited as a reason for selection.

Hi fantumfan2003 (M),
Including the diplomatic advantage's scope shared with 'Boris' there are several other facts and advantages which helped Rafale (Dassault) excel to cut a deal amid of confusing state over a cut-throat competition of air-superiority among the major players.
Key factors including (but not limited to )

Eurofighter Typhoon or any other US Co. proposal doesn't had a transfer of technology type of arrangement for agreement, however, I have also read some posts regarding this type of arrangement with the Sukhois; but, believe me people this time it will be a different scenario altogether having said that Private sector mainly Corporate will be its private sector partner to manufacture the Rafale Combat jets in India.
Yes gents (and ladies); you heard me right:

According to the media source:
Dassault Aviation has selected Reliance Industries Limited (RIL) as its private sector partner to manufacture the Rafale Combat jets in India.
Details are not known but Dassault confirmed the agreement with the Mumbai-based Mukesh Ambani-led Indian conglomerate. It was signed a week or so after the Government announced the Rafale as the winner in the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) fray Jan 31.
In a statement, the French company said: Dassault Aviation, a major player in the global aerospace industry has entered into an MoU with Reliance Industries Ltd., India’s largest private sector company, for pursuing in strategic opportunities of collaboration in the area of complex manufacturing and support in India.
Dassault manufactures Rafale combat jets and Falcon business jets, and the proposed venture should foray into both these sectors.
Company sources also pointed out that much of the tooling and weapons of IAF’s Mirage 2000, which are being upgraded to Mirage 2000-5 standards, are common with those of the Rafale, and therefore it would be easier to absorb the new generation technologies, both in manufacturing and operations.
Authoritative sources told the media that the two partners had also informed the Ministry of Defence (MoD).
Any such venture has to be cleared by the Government and several procedural and security clearances would be needed in due course as Reliance gets into the technology induction and manufacturing process.
As HAL is the lead integrator for the MMRCA project, the two companies will have to involve it also.
While in-principle approval for such collaborations already exists as per the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP), the Government has just cleared an important proposal permitting the Defence Public Sector Undertakings (DPSUs) like HAL to forge partnerships with private sector companies to speed up technology induction as well as production of strategic systems for the armed forces.
RIL, already the top group in India, should become the biggest Indian player in combat jets and allied military systems.
Notably, RIL had inducted Boeing India’s former head for defence systems, Dr Vivek Lall, to lead a security and defence subsidiary. The intention apparently was to utilize the opportunities offered by India’s growing defence requirements, and the business that offsets would generate for the Indian industry.
Dr Lall, an Indian with US citizenship, has the distinction to have worked in the US National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA), the war systems US giant Raytheon and then the civil and military aviation world leader Boeing. He is credited as being one of the 2000 outstanding scientists in the entire world, and he was inducted as a Distinguished Fellow recently at the RIL-funded think tank, the Observer Research Foundation (ORF), apparently for initiating hi tech aviation studies.
The cash rich Reliance should infuse billions of dollars in its new partnership. There are timelines in the delivery of MMRCA, and this venture should be able to exceed the turnover of HAL within five years or so.
RIL has already gone into sophisticated Homeland Security systems to make cities secure, and signed agreements with Raytheon and German Siemens in this regard.
As per the terms of the Request for Proposals (RfP), issued by the Indian Air Force (IAF) in 2007, HAL will be the prime integrator for the selected aircraft. But the winning vendor would have the choice to go in for private or public sector companies, for the 50 per cent offsets commitments mandatory for the deal.
It may be recalled that there was a time when the defence industries were open only to the public sector. But gradually, there has been relaxation as the Indian private industry has been seeking a level playing field with public sector companies in defence manufacturing.
There has also been the inability of some of the Defence Public Sector Undertakings (DPSUs) to stick to time lines due to persistent labour trouble, and in some cases poor workmanship resulting from seemingly innocuous but otherwise serious problems like tobacco addiction among employees. The armed forces have been looking at the private sector for quality and timely delivery assurances.
How the Dassault-Reliance venture proceeds will depend on the finalisation of the MoD’s negotiations over the acquisition of Rafale. The RfP is for 126 aircraft with an option for 63 more. But over the years, this number should go up to 300 as IAF is looking for 42 to 45 combat aircraft squadrons by 2022 or so.
Notably, IAF, Army and Navy also need transport aircraft. For instance, IAF is looking for replacements for about 60 of its very old Avro aircraft. The Dassault-RIL venture should also open the doors for production of transport aircraft in India.

Also, France is more or less an obvious choice for India because there is also a Nuclear Power Plant based on Heavy Water is sanctioned so by giving such order to France, India is standing on a position where is can really bargain the deal and cut out the best offer which has just happened in this deal, kindly note that India shall always have a upper hand (it is rude to write so but it is the most appropriate also) by saying Yes to this because if India's diplomatic relationship ever goes stale with France then India will still have options to purchase equally superior gunship with other countries BUT if India withdraws with the Nuclear Power Plant treaty then it will be a major setback for France which will not only hamper its financial progress but also will affect its then ruling regime, and also, France has already tried stunts with several nations but failed to seal any such deal.
What I think and strongly believe the relationship with France will also help India getting its long pending struggle of becoming a permanent member of the UN.

It is heartening to see that the likes of steroided but outdated types like MiG-29M/35, Hornet/Super Hornet and Viper were rejected in the early stages. The combat debuts in Libya for the Rafale and Typhoon must have helped but its fair to assume that India will rarely exercise a chance to use such advanced weapon systems in anger.

I wish to differ in my opinion on this context - Having surrounded by such lovely neighbors we could use them much earlier than you and me can even think. One is our MFN but doesn't hesitate to open fire on us, one declared us as their MFN but this whole post will be hijacked if I even try to point a finger on it, One is still recovering, One doesn't care and other are under Marxist influence.

At least this time round it appears the tax payers money has been spent wisely.

YES, I completely agree with you ..

Agreed! It's a great choice. But coming to transfer of technology, this has happened in many other air crafts too. Most of the purchases have been like that e.g, the Mirage. One of the reasons i guess is that internal production would have cut the cash flow to many corrupt persons, that's why in my opinion no crafts were ever built at home.

I do hope with this we have a greater edge over our neighbors.

Hey Big Daddy (BD),
As discussed hereinabove, this time it will be a different scenario altogether anticipating Private Sector's involvement, and please understand in the given situation we are producing (I mean to say Manufacturing) several aircrafts as mentioned in this thread already.
Just to add - You will be amazed to know that ALH touches 20,000 feet and Cheetal 23,000 and defined New Heights for Indian Helicopters.

Dhruv_cockpit.jpg

Also it is a very dearly fact that Three Indian entities among world's top 100 arms manufacturers
Namely,
1) Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL),
2) Bharat Electronics (BEL), and,
3) the Ordnance Factories Board (OFB)
are figure in the top 100 list of arms manufacturers released by disarmament watchdog SIPRI (Swedish International Peace Research Institute) for 2010.
AND yes, we are miles ahead of our neighbors ..

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I Guess it is very difficult to sum-up everything in this singular post and seems that the next post is even more interesting to reply so this post will be continued to the next level (post) - CONTD -

[sammesanj]

Vishal singh,
great narration mate, enjoyed and liked reading it very much.
and it all makes sense.

cheers,
Sam singh

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Note:
- The font size is kept small intentionally to cover less space, you are advised to zoom in for better readability as per your convenience.
- Colours and markings used hereinabove are for representational purpose only.

As regards build here or in country of origin, its a question of cost. As it happened with HAL manufacturing Su-30MKIs at higher prices and then the decision to by more MKIs built in Russia to control costs.

Hi fantumfan2003 (M),

HAL manufacturing SU-30 MKI(s) at a higher price is because vital parts were imported from Russia then, yes, the decision to buy more SU(s) are done for averaging of the effective cost and not to control the cost.

Corruption is endemic in defence deals, some are known, many are not.

I completely agree with you.

As regards, technology transfer, why would any nation/company give you a piece of cutting technology on a platter for which they have invested time, money, blood and sweat

Well, to get paid for what they have built, it is a Multi-Billion Rupee deal and France is in a state of recession and so is Europe and US are. Every country needs money - as a matter of fact I should share that the cost to run India is about Rs 12,00,000 Crores - per annum, And such is required by other nations too.
Adding to this point, why would you think that we in India are able to purchase a LG 3D TV completely built inside our own territory, this is because a domestic market has always have limitations for a company to exhaust its complete production capabilities In a large scale industry.
And why do we purchase - well it is a give and take relationship and Win-Win situations for both parties. I pay you for catering me with just the right product and as a compensation for your vested time and expertise.

India does have the means to produce hi-tech items, but they are slow in research and production and not at all cost effective. The best example in Military aviation is the LCA Tejas.

Yes, I agree that LCA Tejas is an optimal example and I agree too that it has costed us more than that was estimated, and I also agree that Our Nation is capable of Manufacturing anything from Needle to warships BUT R&D takes time & considerable amount of money too, also as a nation in a developing state it is not feasible to conduct such elaborate and deep R&D; I'm not talking in the term of capability and intelligence but on the money front.

The MMRCA requirement of which the Rafale is a winner, itself is open to question because at that time, circa 2004, The IAF had actually finalised on buying a fleet of Mirage 2000-5 an advanced version of the multi-role Mirage 2000H it already flies. And to confuse matters further, they are now upgrading these H variants to the -5 variant at a per unit cost with which a nation could by complete fighter aircraft. But that's defence procurement as practiced by our governments, ministries and armed forces. Its akin to a headless chicken running around without direction.........Do note its the tax payers money that is wasted on wrong/delayed purchase decisions and kickbacks ..

Easy man easy .. I am not some kind of a Pro-Govt. Protocol preaching samaritan but CIRCA 2004 was a strategy adopted under the circumstances, scopes and resources of that time.
H variants of Mirage 2000 are now being upgraded because instead of going for a seasoned multirole fighter jet strategically they are now opting for defining a single or dual traded type of role for these to suit their need. Why it is (to suit their need is) emphasised; because procurement of arms and armaments are primarily based and mainly focussed on the strategy of combat situations and wars, on how we are going to fight a war and the procurements will be fine tuned; based on our strategy to fight a war. It is not akin to headless chickens running around without direction but it is a matter of long planning and approvals of all the committees just to ensure that the tax payers money is well utilised, kickbacks are there but that is a different story all-together

Of the 6 aircraft that were in the running the Rafale is the right choice. It represents the latest technologies and capabilities.
I have followed the development of the aircraft in the running for a very long time, and infact even saw P1 and P2 of what then was the Jager 90 at MBB

Hi MoA (does it refers to Ministry of Arms !!),

Yes I agree with you, based on strategic points Rafale is the 'right choice'.

another tangent for thought is that while the su 30 is a super maneuverable the rafale is not. catering for this a/c will entail an entire separate logistic burden. so it may have been wiser to get more su 30s as per one viewpoint. but still it is a good direction we have taken and better than upgrading the old war horses like the jag/ mirage / migs. atleast we are getting new stuff.

Hi Ace_doc,

Well, Doc; all I can say that no armies (read defense forces) in this world can win only by riding horses. You need to have a complete platter. If sniper rifle is most accurate and of the longest range then why do we have carbines, pistols, revolvers, assault rifles, as so and so on, simple, to cater different situations.
If that has to be considered; I can say that the chess is a game considered to be of the mindful people; then it would have only queens and a king and not rooks, pawns, knights, and bishops.

Lets call it a day .. What a way to spend a evening ..
I'll catch you up later guys ..
Until then ..
ciao ..

[χάος]

Excellent Share Vishal .. Thanks.

Hi lonetrigger,
You are most welcome,

An Airforce broadly consists of 7 categories
Interceptors
Fighters-Bombers
Multi Role
Strategic Bombers
Patrol/AWACS
Transport
Helicopters

I'll keep a note - Thanks

By the way, Rafale was rejected by European Nations in favor of Eurofighter.

This is quite obvious .. as said earlier that the European decisions are mainly influenced by Germany as the bread-runner of the family and Germany never want any other economy in Europe to start booming, and moreover Eurofighter - Typhoon is developed in participation of Germany. Therefore for Europe Typhoon has to be a 'Good Choice' and it has to be preferred over Rafale or any other competitor.

....we are so scared to make a decision, also we have numerous processes and procedures to go through before the whole plan gets Okay-ed. By the time we agree to decide, start ordering and THEN receiving equipment in phases, the goodies in question are already in the process of being phased out by newer innovation and technology! Catch 22! Sad!

Hi ckkalyan,
Thanks for participation,
Well !! I covered your points in my earlier posts .. To some extent I agree with you that the selection procedure is long .. but then this is the way it has to be done ..

As far as maneuverability goes, a Rafale should be able to fly circles around an MKI, owing to its thrust to weight ratio and size. Why the Rafale, even the upgraded MiG-21bisON runs circles around an MKI. All three have Helmet mounted sighting systems for WVR air combat. Even in a BVR aircombat scenario, the Rafale should be equal or better than the MKI except probably the range of the MKI radar might be higher than that of the Rafale, but that is not necessarily an advantage.

Hi fantumfun2003 (M),
very true M, I totally agreee ..

A great addition the Rafale will be to the Indian Air Force....With the Sukhoi Su-30mki's, the Air Force will have considerable leverage against enemies....And 'yes' Indian can now afford the best....And its on the way for making the best itself.....

Hi fpsrussia,
Cheers ..

If its true that SU-30 MKI is a multi-role, then I stand corrected. Thanks.
The Rafale was rejected for several reasons, including Dassault's insistence on leadership role, moreover, France demanded a swing-role fighter that was lighter than a design desired by the other four nations. I am not saying that Rafale is second to Eurofighter.

Hi lonetrigger,
Kindly elaborate this point a bit .. I couldn't understand what it meant actually, thus I can't comment on this.

I strongly feel that India should produce its own Fighter Aircraft rather than spending Billions on Aircraft Designs that were primarily designed to suit particular needs. I hope we make good investments in Aeronautics R&D and capable Production, only then can we look the Chinese in the eye.

Well, looking Chinese in the eye, it a bit difficult in given situations, especially if a country doesn't have moral standards and etiquette' ..
Few years ago Russia has threatened to sue China for copying its Sukhoi Su-27SK fighters and its pirate production for export to Pakistan and other Third World countries at much cheaper prices.

"Russia has officially notified China that the production of J11 (fighters), a copy of Russian Su-27SK, violates inter-governmental agreements. Moscow has vowed to launch legal procedures for the protection of its intellectual property," Nezavisimaya Gazeta said.

Under the 1996 agreement, China had the right to assemble 200 Su-27SK fighters under the local brand J11. However, after receiving 95 kits and 180 AL31F engines, Beijing in November 2004 notified Moscow that it no more needs Russian kits for the assembly of Su-27 fighters, saying that combat capabilities of the fighter were very limited and further action would be taken after analysis of production experience by Chinese experts, the paper said.

"It seems the analysis was successful, as in the beginning of 2007, China unveiled its 'development' — J11B fighter, suspiciously reminding of Su-27," the daily reported.

Now, Moscow seems to have completely stopped the deliveries of engines. The onboard Zhuk radar is one of the problem modules for China as from the very beginning it was supplied with limited combat capabilities, the report said.

"What irks Moscow most is that the 1996 agreement did not allow the re-export of J11 to third countries, but now Beijing is busy in the search for the markets of this fighter.

First in the queue is Pakistan," it said, adding China plans to build 5,000 J11B fighters. Given their cheap price, J11B fighters may wipe out not only Su-27, but also MiG-29 and US F-16 from the Third World markets.

Until a few years ago China doesn't even gave liberty to its citizen to even surf on the WWW, there was internet but it was only in the native language and search engines were banned there; therefore the citizen couldn't even what is going around in the world.

They don't have a labour law or Minimum Wages Law enforced thats why the labour is so cheap.

Above all no one can raise voice against government; just few years back they shot more than 2000 students who were silently protesting against a government policy i middle of the city.

And anyway by purchasing Rafale IAF's service area has also increased considerably. Also the defense research spends a considerable amount on development of warheads; like Missiles; Nuclear war heads; AAMs; and likewise ..

I will also add some more information related to Fighters' Comparison / Defense Research / Service Area of IAF & Navy - Independent and Joint / et cetera ..

Hi Vishalk Very nice article. Looking for more of such articles.

Hi Ravindra,
Thank you, I will sure keep posting ...

great narration mate, enjoyed and liked reading it very much.
and it all makes sense.

Hi sammesanj (Sam Singh),
Thank you for appreciating the work ..

Thank you people for actively participating.
Your comments are very lovely indeed, your concerns and queries are highly introspective and valuable ..
I will keep up the good work as per the expectation of the patrons.
And before I forget; I must mention that all the mentors are doing great work here.

ciao ..