Could Mumbai attack be prevented

[perfectionist1]

Hi Guys,

While I agree with all points of views expressed so far, especially of Tim, xl_target and I would also like to agree with Virendra.

I think atleast 5 days mandatory training in batch from police trainer on shooting and safety must be there as a clause which every new license holder should go through without fail, obviously I am expecting "honest" training sessions.

This would change the whole scenario and make people more responsible and at the same time confident with guns, atleast the "mystic" around guns be dissolved.


Looking forward to more views from gurus.

Cheers...Safe Shooting.

[Katana]

The cops themselves need training first. The average amount of rounds given for 'training' is a measely 7-8 rounds per annum to a PI level officer in Gujarat. How can you expect him to perform?

Have you ever had a police officer look over your license or firearm? In my case, I asked for a rifle license and was given one for a revolver!

They don't even know the various actions firearms come in, from bolt actions to repeaters, shotguns to shortguns(in their lingo), semi automatics to single shots they need to be taught and trained first. Doing that for a specific few within the police forces with not hold up against such attacks. Each and every police officer needs to be trained and sensitised towards firearms and their tactical usage.

[dr.jayakumar]

perfectionist1 and katana,
you are absoleutly right,need training.thats what i was thinking about,if US could train the civilians why not india?
just went through the survival tactics,and here is the link http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j& ... 3g&cad=rja.
if we can think ahead of the terrorists i feel we can overcome them.at present mumbai and delhi seems to be their target.why not educate people on antiterrorism.
i think if someone from mumbai starts an excercise rest will follow.
here people forget these incidents easily and let loose another,why not be prepared,instead of beleiving dumb ......g,useless,good for nothing etc govt.
regards

[perfectionist1]

7-8 bullets per year for Police training ..... God save us, as you have done always.

[dr.jayakumar]

7-8 bullets per year for Police training ..... God save us, as you have done always.

god will will save us after our death.as is always.
these are the area where our govt has to second good look in.the age old british law is still living in here.shame on us.
(friends i use all my friends quota,nearly 1000/for .22 and 500(little exaggerated) for my .32.)you all can do it too.
regards.

[boris]

perfectionist1 and katana,
you are absoleutly right,need training.thats what i was thinking about,if US could train the civilians why not india?
just went through the survival tactics,and here is the link http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j& ... 3g&cad=rja.
if we can think ahead of the terrorists i feel we can overcome them.at present mumbai and delhi seems to be their target.why not educate people on antiterrorism.
i think if someone from mumbai starts an excercise rest will follow.
here people forget these incidents easily and let loose another,why not be prepared,instead of beleiving dumb ......g,useless,good for nothing etc govt.
regards

Teach the civilians??The same civilians that find guns evil and were ready for stricter laws after 26/11.

How will police train them even when 99.99% of them dont know the basic safety rules of guns.

Educate people about antiterrorism,when they believe why should we learn defense when NSG,Police,Army are paid to do that and paid for my safety(something even the army agrees as 8/10 army officers believe guns should be banned for civilians in India.)

Americans and Indians have a total different mindset towards terrorism and self-defense,Indians still agree that a person who learns martial arts is a violent person by nature.Agreed the few members here think on the correct lines regarding self defense but that's just 500 out of millions living in metros and other cities.

I may be sounding pessimistic here but this is after talking to people who know jack about guns and some govt. officers-gun laws wont relax in India they can only get tightened-prohibited bores will stay,semi auto rifles will be banned,import will be banned,ammo quotas will remain and the only way we can see a real M4/AK/9MM in action is on youtube.

[timmy]

I don't see myself differing from the views expressed here.

1. Most certainly, Mumbai revealed serious deficiencies in police training and procedures. Police MUST be extensively trained.

2. Village committees: Yes, this is a valid option. I'd think of it like volunteer fire departments, which are used here for areas where an organized fire department can't be deployed for whatever reason. The main things here are TRAINING and COORDINATION. Note that a committee is going to have some kind of training, some kind of method and procedure which is worked out before hand so everyone is on the same page if a response is needed, and whoever would have arms would be organized to do certain tasks in the plan. This is a step away from random citizens pulling iron and blasting. The general population would, I think, respond well to such organization, as long as they knew there was some training and responsibility exercised.

Those of you who are thinking along these lines may be interested in knowing that my State, New Mexico, has this kind of organization as part of its constituted function and powers:

http://www.nmsg-military.us/

http://www.nmsg-mil.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Mexico ... ense_Force

The nickname for this organization is "The Vecinos" which means "neighbors". They are not usually armed, however this is only a matter of function -- this type of organization includes training and procedural planning that is the essence, I think, of an effective civilian response to terrorists.

3. The case of Rukhsana is not quite the same thing. It is true that these people were terrorists, but they were not engaged in terror here. They were simply acting as goons looking for girls to rape. Their attack was a simple wandering from house to house -- not the same as the subject of this thread, which is a Mumbai-style attack. Rukhsana would not have faired well in the halls of the Oberoi with her hatchet. She would have been sawed in half by a hail of 7.62 x 39 in a New York Second.

We've talked over and over again here as gun owners about the key element here: training and procedure. As responsible gun owners, we all do this, or we should be!

As individuals, we use guns for private use, and exercising safety when handling and shooting is a primary thing. Also, we are careful when storing and carrying. So organization is NOT something foreign to the gun owner. If it is, that person should not have a gun, period!

Now, we are talking about using guns as a response to highly organized terrorists -- that's what Mumbai was. So this is no longer just individual gun use, it is collective. Just as we accept that we must be individually responsible in our gun handling for personal use (we are safe, we know how to shoot, we practice, etc.), so additional methods and procedures are needed to meet the challenges of a new function.

What is NOT a solution, in my view, is a bunch of unorganized and untrained "cowboys" blazing away. No individual is going to be Quick Gun Murugan in a Mumbai situation. Responding to such an event is NOT something to be left to overactive imaginations and fantasy.

Finally, my response to this comment:

Pervez Musharraf himself said no insurgency can survive without some sort of support including local support in your enemy's land.

He should know...

[dr.jayakumar]

''may be sounding pessimistic here but this is after talking to people who know jack about guns and some govt. officers-gun laws wont relax in India they can only get tightened-prohibited bores will stay,semi auto rifles will be banned,import will be banned,ammo quotas will remain and the only way we can see a real M4/AK/9MM in action is on youtube.''
i am an optimist,if not now our future will,for sure have more freedom than us.IF we fight for rkba now.
regards

[fantumfan2003]

Isn't it strange that the govt wants to clamp down on the ability to keep and bear arms in a legal manner. Especially so when most of the illegal arms in the wrong hands are due to previous governments long list of wrong domestic and foreign policies and their inability to come down hard on organised and opportunistic crimes.......

I happened to see an episode on the largest shoot out in US police history on one of the entertainment channels........googled for more info and found this....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout

I was dismayed to learn that just because a couple of thieves used illegally modified weapons in their dirty work, the state passed a 10 round max magazine rule for all legal gun owners in that state........I thought it was only happening here but even in the US the law makers seem to be doing wrong to legal gun owners.....

M.

''may be sounding pessimistic here but this is after talking to people who know jack about guns and some govt. officers-gun laws wont relax in India they can only get tightened-prohibited bores will stay,semi auto rifles will be banned,import will be banned,ammo quotas will remain and the only way we can see a real M4/AK/9MM in action is on youtube.''
i am an optimist,if not now our future will,for sure have more freedom than us.IF we fight for rkba now.
regards

[dr.jayakumar]

Isn't it strange that the govt wants to clamp down on the ability to keep and bear arms in a legal manner. Especially so when most of the illegal arms in the wrong hands are due to previous governments long list of wrong domestic and foreign policies and their inability to come down hard on organised and opportunistic crimes.......

I happened to see an episode on the largest shoot out in US police history on one of the entertainment channels........googled for more info and found this....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout

I was dismayed to learn that just because a couple of thieves used illegally modified weapons in their dirty work, the state passed a 10 round max magazine rule for all legal gun owners in that state........I thought it was only happening here but even in the US the law makers seem to be doing wrong to legal gun owners.....

M.

''may be sounding pessimistic here but this is after talking to people who know jack about guns and some govt. officers-gun laws wont relax in India they can only get tightened-prohibited bores will stay,semi auto rifles will be banned,import will be banned,ammo quotas will remain and the only way we can see a real M4/AK/9MM in action is on youtube.''
i am an optimist,if not now our future will,for sure have more freedom than us.IF we fight for rkba now.
regards

i just don't understand something,why the law makers fail to understand that ''IT IS NOT THE LEGAL GUN OWNERS WHO DOES THE CRIME.IT IS THE CRIMINAL WITH ILLEGAL GUNS"sorry for shouting.
filter the ports which is the main source for illegal firearms.do something,search everything coming through the sea,post more people to work on sea border,have survillence camera's at hotspots,instead of constantly whipping the law abiding citizens.grrrrr........
regards

[perfectionist1]

I would rather like to go down fighting with terrorists than being a sitting duck.
But authorities believe in keeping its citizens castrated