Buying Knives and other sharp n shiny objects in Rajasthan.

All Things Sharp and Pointed: compound and crossbows, knives and swords.
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sa_ali
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Re: Buying Knives and other sharp n shiny objects in Rajasth

Post by sa_ali » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:46 am

Simply wow, that is indeed craftsmanship at its best. I am sure you will be now getting blade made for these mooth :).

The folding blades are good too, the pattern induced is great., if we have logo that will be fantastic, or get the logo work done by Kuftgari.

Am in for the blades, they are are good and the price seems decent with the sheath. but yes it will be worth a while to test as to how they retain the edge. I am hoping that you will be putting them to test soon.

I have another idea, may be we can pool in money and get these made as present for the 108 MP who have come out to support us. Mods what do you think. I am sure we have atleast 100 members who can pool in money for atleast 1 MP each. :), just a suggestion.

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Re: Buying Knives and other sharp n shiny objects in Rajasth

Post by Katana » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:53 pm

Sa_ali,

Unfortunately, these hilts were not my order. Even if they were, they would leave a sizeable dent in my pocket. I am working on a kilij blade though. I discussed it with some people in Udaipur before I left. I presume the earliest I can have it is probably middle next year. The rest of the embelishments will follow, if I have some money left over for gold that is! :roll:

About the folders, it was an unexpected find. If you are thinking of placing an order and having a logo etc. done on it, please discuss with the owners etc. first. The knives per se are not difficult to order.
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Re: Buying Knives and other sharp n shiny objects in Rajasth

Post by sa_ali » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:56 pm

Katana wrote:About the folders, it was an unexpected find. If you are thinking of placing an order and having a logo etc. done on it, please discuss with the owners etc.
Yep its just a suggestion
Katana wrote:See for yourselves:
I have being seeing over and over again and what a craftsmanship, hats off, its so intricate and balance, that mooth with tiger and elephant, its simply superb, stripes like you pointed out, they are so good and they thing is really amazing. Its an absolute beauty, i hope that the artisan is getting value for it.
he has posted here earlier on the forum and i had pm him for some detail, but nothing was heard back, nor was there any update on that thread by him. May be katanaji knows him already. but the site is up and running
www.finedamascus.com

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Re: Buying Knives and other sharp n shiny objects in Rajasth

Post by Moin. » Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:21 pm

Don't mean to digress from the superb material being posted by Katanaji, but found this very interesting and thought I should share this here

Image

Image

Image

Sailaba. Short Muslim sword with a forward curved blade from Hyderabad (Deccan). ….. The weapon is identical to the sosun pattah and probably derives from the yataghan which is the earlier weapon.
These are stated to be from Hyderabad, which of course is in the Deccan, where generally the Deccani 'sosun pattah' are found with the Hindu baskethilt (Pant. p.80). It is interesting to note the so called Indo-Muslim tulwar hilt, as well as the T spine kirach type blade which suggests the influence of the Mughal courts of the north which favored the Islamic form sosun pattah (Rawson, pl.1). Of further interest is the scabbard which has the baldric type carrying rings mounted opposed on the throat of the scabbard, which Ian has mentioned, and I believe is an Arabian feature. Hyderabad typically used mercenary warriors from the Yemen in Arabia, and often made trade weapons for those regions. It would seem likely that influences such as these scabbard ring mounts might have been adapted there.



Here's the original material

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthrea ... ht=Sailaba
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Re: Buying Knives and other sharp n shiny objects in Rajasth

Post by Katana » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:10 pm

The blade maker

During my trip I decided to visit the blade maker who has been doing work for me. He lives and operates from his home in a town some 70kms from Udaipur.

As luck would have it, he was not forging any swords that day, although he had been working on some knives. I was hoping to stay with him the entire day and photograph the process for one and all to see. Unfortunately that was not to be.

However, he did have a couple of billets that he was planning to start work on in a couple of days time. These billets are basically pieces of steel that have been folded over and over after addidng 'pucca' steel to it. The forgers themselves do not have the slightest idea of modern metallurgy but rely heavily on their own experiences to achieve the right strength. In effect, the billets are basically laminated strips of steel. These laminates are also called 'reshas'.
SAKELAmfr 013 (Small).jpg
SAKELAmfr 011 (Small).jpg
To achieve the damascus pattern, minor indentation are tapped or drilled over the surfaces to produce that circular and/ or wavy patterns so peculiar to damascus steels.
SAKELAmfr 009 (Small).jpg
Once the forger starts his work he will estimate the length and breadth of the blade that he wants to create, then heat it, shape it, cool it and file/ fuller it till the correct blade is created. The billets could be about 3 to 3.25 kgs when they start out and loose about 250 to 400 gms till they are fashioned into sword blades.
SAKELAmfr 014 (Small).jpg
This form is mechanical damascus.
SAKELAmfr 016 (Small).jpg
SAKELAmfr 015 (Small).jpg
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Justice alone is the mainstay of government and the source of prosperity to the governed, injustice is the most pernicious of things; it saps the foundations of the government and brings ruin upon the realm - Sher Shah Sur, Sultan-ul-Adil.

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Re: Buying Knives and other sharp n shiny objects in Rajasth

Post by Katana » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:41 pm

Some articles I saw for sale-Part I

These are for sale with my sakligar
UdrOldSwordKatars 004 (Small).jpg
UdrOldSwordKatars 013 (Small).jpg
UdrOldSwordKatars 019 (Small).jpg
UdrOldSwordKatars 001 (Small).jpg
UdrOldSwordKatars 005 (Small).jpg
UdrOldSwordKatars 020 (Small).jpg
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Justice alone is the mainstay of government and the source of prosperity to the governed, injustice is the most pernicious of things; it saps the foundations of the government and brings ruin upon the realm - Sher Shah Sur, Sultan-ul-Adil.

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Re: Buying Knives and other sharp n shiny objects in Rajasth

Post by Katana » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:58 pm

Part II

There is this jeweller in Udaipur who buys and sells arms and armour. Pretty down to earth guy but a bit reclusive. Anyway, I decided to pay him a visit one evening. Just to see what he was stocking up on.
UdrOldSwordKatars 034 (Small).jpg
UdrOldSwordKatars 043 (Small).jpg
UdrOldSwordKatars 039 (Small).jpg
UdrOldSwordKatars 029 (Small).jpg
UdrOldSwordKatars 028 (Small).jpg
UdrOldSwordKatars 027 (Small).jpg
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Justice alone is the mainstay of government and the source of prosperity to the governed, injustice is the most pernicious of things; it saps the foundations of the government and brings ruin upon the realm - Sher Shah Sur, Sultan-ul-Adil.

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Re: Buying Knives and other sharp n shiny objects in Rajasth

Post by Olly » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:35 pm

It was so nice of you to post the pics, Katana ! A real treat for the eyes...

If possible, do give a price indication too...

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Re: Buying Knives and other sharp n shiny objects in Rajasth

Post by Katana » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:40 pm

Prices are pretty much in the stratosphere! These guys have caught on now.

I purposely did not ask them since I had no intention of purchasing them. If it is something specific you are looking for let me know, I'll call and find out.

As for new stuff that one wants made, I have the pricing with me.
Justice alone is the mainstay of government and the source of prosperity to the governed, injustice is the most pernicious of things; it saps the foundations of the government and brings ruin upon the realm - Sher Shah Sur, Sultan-ul-Adil.

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Re: Buying Knives and other sharp n shiny objects in Rajasth

Post by Moin. » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:38 am

Absolutely agree with Olly there, an absolute absolute visual treat. Reading about pattern welding, damascus, sakela is one thing, and seeing the pictures another. These sub threads were an Indian Edged weapons version of Baywatch !!!!! ,, Scintillating lolzzz.....

In all of the old swords that you saw in Udaipur, did you find any worth picking up wrt to the quality of the blade, rarity, finesse in workmanship etc....With prices 40-50K and North, would you say considering the antique value & craftsmanship these are still good buys and worthy investments or getting new ones commisioned is being more prudent ?

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Re: Buying Knives and other sharp n shiny objects in Rajasth

Post by Moin. » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:53 am

Katana wrote:The blade maker

During my trip I decided to visit the blade maker who has been doing work for me. He lives and operates from his home in a town some 70kms from Udaipur.

As luck would have it, he was not forging any swords that day, although he had been working on some knives. I was hoping to stay with him the entire day and photograph the process for one and all to see. Unfortunately that was not to be.

However, he did have a couple of billets that he was planning to start work on in a couple of days time. These billets are basically pieces of steel that have been folded over and over after addidng 'pucca' steel to it. The forgers themselves do not have the slightest idea of modern metallurgy but rely heavily on their own experiences to achieve the right strength. In effect, the billets are basically laminated strips of steel. These laminates are also called 'reshas'.
SAKELAmfr 013 (Small).jpg
SAKELAmfr 011 (Small).jpg
To achieve the damascus pattern, minor indentation are tapped or drilled over the surfaces to produce that circular and/ or wavy patterns so peculiar to damascus steels.
SAKELAmfr 009 (Small).jpg
Once the forger starts his work he will estimate the length and breadth of the blade that he wants to create, then heat it, shape it, cool it and file/ fuller it till the correct blade is created. The billets could be about 3 to 3.25 kgs when they start out and loose about 250 to 400 gms till they are fashioned into sword blades.
SAKELAmfr 014 (Small).jpg
This form is mechanical damascus.
SAKELAmfr 016 (Small).jpg
SAKELAmfr 015 (Small).jpg
1) After the billets are dimpled is the process of folding carried out again or the forging hammering eventually produces the " Jauhars". What chemical is used by the Sakligars to etch and bring out the patterns.

2)How would you rate "faulad" against contemporary modern steels used in knife making like say 440C or Aus8 or even S30V.. Understand that with the Sakligars and these blades it's not an exact science but how would you rate faulad in terms of say carbon content, edge retention, rockwell hardness etc. The few blades I had the privileg of handling at Nanhe Mians Stores had blades as good as found on contemporary tactical knives....


The very fact that these pieces have stood the test of time is a testament to the quality and the skills of Indian Craftsmen & Sakligars. Also it is so heartwarming that such skills have not died, there are still patrons commisioning works and encouraging these craftsmen..... eg: The Gold Koftoagiri work is as exquisite absolutely museum worthy......
In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. Camus

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Re: Buying Knives and other sharp n shiny objects in Rajasth

Post by Olly » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:57 am

This 'pattern welding' business seems weird and looks as if they do it to pass off stuff as damascus steel... I fear this knife that I have here might not be damascus after all... :(

Image

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Re: Buying Knives and other sharp n shiny objects in Rajasth

Post by sa_ali » Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:07 am

fantastic visual treat sir.

Its good to hear that the artisians have caught up and are getting the price for all the hard they are doing.

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Re: Buying Knives and other sharp n shiny objects in Rajasth

Post by Katana » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:14 pm

Comparing purchases of new vs. old pieces, I feel, is a matter of choice. I would personally prefer to have new ones made for a couple of reasons. Primarily, my interest lies in the historical aspect of these arms. Their designs, materials and craftsmanship interests me to the point where I would like to have them made specifically for myself, especially to recall a particular nuance or aspect in our country's history. Although I may not be able to procure an amazingly well made piece, at least I know what I'm getting. Moreover, in this fashion I would learn more about it's manufacture.

Procuring an older piece will of course, have it' s benefits. It can be a wonderful investment, an absolute conversation piece and a chance to 'own' a piece of history. However, it has its downside too. Many would require restoration and in the wrong hands could wash away one's love and investment. Secondly, storage factors would also play a decisive role. Also the fact that these 'investments' are not truly 'liquid' in the financial sense, it would not be easy to find a buyer should the need to resell arise.

As concerns comparing traditional swords made in today's times with contemporary knives made in the West, it's a no contest. Western metallurgy is way ahead of what is being made today. Should the same be compared to faulad steel? I think it would be wrong to compare it in the first place. Both belong to different eras. Faulad was made with certain resources while the new steels have infinite resources, both in raw materials and the forging process. In hindsight, all I can comment is that looking at what craftsmen had in the earlier times, and the wares that went past their hands were way superior to what is being made today.

To come back to your original question on the forging of the billets; the first process is 'ghadai' or tempering the dimpled billet. Thereafter it is allowed to cool and reforged and any impurities that turn up on the surface scraped off. The lengthened billet is dimpled once again according to the design that is envisaged. This brings out the 'jawhar' and is forged once again. By this step the billet would have lengthened more and lost about 1/4 of it's mass. The strip is then shaped after light heating.

Thereafter comes the aesthetic stage. The blade is filed according to the shape required, fullers made along the sides if the design calls for it and polished. This was earlier done by hand using sheep wool but today craftsmen prefer buffing machines now. After this the blade is soaked in brine or a solution of alum to bring out the jawhars (this is the 'paani chadana' stage). The blade is then given to a professional polisher who finishes the blade.

It should be noticed that during this process the billet is tempered 4 times, sometimes going up to 7, not counting the earlier laminations. If a wavy pattern is desired, copper, brass or white metal strips are added between each 'ghadai' to get the desired rosettes.

This is the mechanical process of damascening a layered billet. Fortunately this process is alive and a few craftsmen are still capable of turning up some good blades.
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Re: Buying Knives and other sharp n shiny objects in Rajasth

Post by Moin. » Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:21 am

Check out the koftagiri work on this khanda..

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
Here's the source of the images

http://www.historicalarmsandarmor.com/0002.html
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