Winchester Self Loading rifles, Models 03, 05, 07, and 10

Posts related to rifles.
User avatar
timmy
Old Timer
Old Timer
Posts: 3027
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:03 am
Location: home on the range

Winchester Self Loading rifles, Models 03, 05, 07, and 10

Post by timmy » Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:16 am

I would like to add a little bit to the discussion of Winchester Self Loading rifles that arjun401 initiated a few days back. My observations pertain to the Winchester Models 03, 05, 07 and 10.

Image

Winchester Model 07 chambered in 351 Winchester Self Loading caliber

At the time these Winchester Self Loading rifles were introduced, the field of firearms development was in the middle of an explosive period of growth. 300 years of matchlock and flintlock ignition firearms had given way to percussion, then repeating and cartridge weapons. The Self Loaders were the culmination of repeating cartridge weapons and constitute an important threshold to our modern time.

Winchester Self Loaders were available in four models, each was the product of Winchester's chief in-house designer, T C Johnson. Johnson had an impressive list of accomplishments at Winchester in the field of firearms development:

Model 03: .22 Winchester Automatic rimfire semiauto rifle
Model 05: centerfire semiauto rifle in .32 Winchester Self Loading and .35 Winchester Self Loading
Model 07: centerfire semiauto rifle in .351 Winchester Self Loading
Model 10: centerfire semiauto rifle in .401 Winchester Self Loading
Model 11: long recoil semiauto shotgun
Model 12: pump action shotgun
Model 21: SxS shotgun
Model 52: target bolt action .22 LR rifle
Model 54: bolt action centerfire high power rifle (predecessor to the Model 70)

At this point, I'll describe the Winchester Self Loading rifles, and then return to the story behind their development.

Description:

The Winchester Self Loader rifles all operated on the inertial blowback principle, in which a bolt and recoil spring act directly on the back of a cartridge to seal the chamber until the fired bullet has exited the barrel's muzzle. In this blowback design, the weight of the bolt and the tension in the recoil spring, which returns the bolt to battery for firing the next round, are directly related to the power of the cartridge that is used. In other words, to keep the chamber sealed by the cartridge brass long enough for the pressure of burning powder to be dissipated out the muzzle end, the weight must be sufficient to delay extraction of the fired cartridge case, acting under the pressure of expanding gasses. The more powerful the cartridge, the heavier the bolt and the stronger the recoil spring must be in the inertia blowback design.

In order to give you an overview of this factor of bolt mass and spring tension, here is a brief overview of the cartridges used in these rifles. Pay special attention to the energy of the bullet, for as you know, to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, which will determine the bolt mass and recoil spring tension needed:

Model 03:
.22 Winchester Automatic; 45 grain 0.222" diameter bullet @ 1055 ft/s, 111 ft-lbs energy

ImageImage

32 and 35 Winchester Self Loading cartridges

Model 05:
.32 Winchester Self Loading; 165 grain 0.321" diameter bullet @ 1400 ft/s, 760 ft-lbs energy
.35 Winchester Self Loading; 180 grain 0.351" diameter bullet @ 1452 ft/s, 841 ft-lbs energy

Image

Winchester 351 Self Loading cartridge

Model 07:
351 Winchester Self Loading; 180 grain 0.352" diameter bullet @ 1850 ft/s, 1370 ft-lbs energy

Image

Winchester 401 Self Loading cartridge. I am sorry, but I could only find a picture with metric dimensions

Model 10:
401 Winchester Self Loading; 200 grain 0.4065" diameter bullet @ 2135 ft/s, 2020 ft-lbs energy

Johnson first developed the .22 version, and then proceeded to design the Model 05 on the same, but upscaled blowback principle. The .32 and .35 Self Loading cartridges were noted for a lack of power -- one can see that they are not much more powerful than a .357 revolver load. (Remember, even a .357 revolver cartridge will develop much more energy when fired out of a rifle length barrel.) When Johnson went back to the drawing board to design the 351 Model 07, additional work was needed. The 351 cartridge operates at about twice the pressure than the first two cartridges, about 40,000 psi vs 20,00 psi.

To get an understanding of how the weight needed to offset the rearward pressure on the bolt, consider this diagram:

Image

Internal parts of the Winchester Self Loading rifle. The bolt is part #17. Note how it extends under the receiver ring and well into the fore end.

Note that the piece that looks somewhat like the fore end of the rifle is actually the bolt, which passes under the receiver ring all the way to the end of the fore end. In fact, fore ends were a weak spot on Winchester Self Loaders, as they were thin walled to allow a maximum amount of weight to be added to the bolt.

Winchester Self Loaders are very well made and finished -- modern guns seldom have the quality of metal and wood fit and finish as these old weapons. They are short and handy to handle, but given their compact form, they are surprisingly heavy. The bulk of the weight is concentrated in the bolt to add the necessary mass.

To cock the action and feed the first round into the chamber, the bolt is connected to a push rod that extends in front of the fore end, ending in a finger plate for handy actuation. Because the recoil spring is somewhat stiff, some attention must be paid to cocking the action.

When I was a young man in Montana, it wasn't uncommon to encounter Model 07s in gun shops. By far the most popular model of this line of rifles, the Model 07 was very popular for law enforcement and border patrol personnel. Keep in mind that, at this time, few rifles offered the firepower of the Self Loading rifles. Normally carrying 5 rounds in their detachable magazines (4 in the Model 10), Winchester sold extended magazines for their police models. Additionally, during World War 1, all of the major Allied powers bought small numbers of Model 07s and some bought even fewer Model 10s for various combat use. One such use was aviation service, where the small form factor and firepower was welcomed.

The Model 03 in .22 Winchester Automatic rimfire carried 10 rounds in a buttstock tubular magazine, similar to the Browning Automatic .22.

Apparently, those who selected weapons for law enforcement duties felt that the recoil of the Model 10 was excessive, but that the recoil of the Model 07 was acceptable, leading to the popularity of the 07.

Approximately 29,000 Model 05s were made, followed by about 55,000 Model 07s and 21,000 Model 10s. 126,000 Model 03 .22s were made. Because they were so popular, I encountered them fairly often out West in the 70s and 80s. However, the owners were often frustrated by the scarcity and expense of the ammunition. In the 30s, the Model 03 was succeeded by the Model 63, which was similar, but chambered in the more popular .22 LR.

Today, there is some resurgence of interest in these rifles, which may sell from anywhere from $500 to $2000 here in the USA. Ammunition is not easily found and most shooters are supplied by their own reloads, often making brass from other cartridges. Using this kind of handmade brass in an autoloading rifle can be difficult, as anyone who has used such weapons in the field knows!

Production of Model 05s ceased in 1920, Model 03s in 1932, Model 10s in 1936, and the Model 07 lasted until 1957.

Although the .32 Winchester Self Loading cartridge was widely viewed as being underpowered for most everything, the cartridge itself served as the basis for the development of the .30 Carbine used by the USA in World War 2.

Comments:

Law enforcement found these weapons effective for facing criminals and also for use by prison guards. One must consider that when these rifles were introduced, high powered repeaters were generally Model 92 and Model 94 Winchesters, and other rifles in this same class. For police work, having rapidly available follow-up shots, especially with an extended magazine, was a great advantage. Similarly, criminals appreciated these weapons, as well.

The blowback action, having few parts, was quite reliable with factory ammunition, another factor making these rifles, especially the Model 07, popular with the police. However, for reloaders, reloads must duplicate the factory ammunition closely in power and bullet weight to ensure that the action will cycle.

For hunting game the size of deer, the .401 is really the only one of these rifles/cartridges that provides sufficient power. The .351 is preferred by some hog hunters because it is compact and offers quick follow-up shots. The Model 05 is generally insufficient for most any hunting use today.

For collectors, the Self Loaders are interesting because of their place in firearms history (see below) and because of the high quality of their manufacture and finish. Shooting them is probably best reserved for enthusiasts who handload, and preferably cast their own bullets, as well.

The "Rest of the Story":

Winchester was the most successful rifle company at the turn of the century, but they had a problem: Most of their success was based on the designs they had purchased from John M Browning, the most pre-eminent firearms genius of the time (and, perhaps, all time!). Before Browning's designs were offered, Winchester's position in the field, mainly based on their flagship lever action products (Model 1866, 1873, and 1876) were under pressure from competitors like Marlin.

Marlin's rifles were able to handle the .45-70 Government round, where Winchester's large 1876 (a scaled up 1873) was a weak toggle link action based on a Wesson pre-Civil War Volcanic pistol design. It was limited in the length and power of the cartridge it could handle.

Around this time, a Winchester executive encountered the single shot rifle designed by young John M Browning. Winchester quickly recognized the unique qualities of the design, which it bought and brought out as the single shot Model 1885 Winchester Low Wall and High Wall rifles.

Soon, Browning designed the Model 1886 Winchester lever action rifle, which was light years ahead of anything competitors could offer in strength and smoothness, offering cartridges up to the powerful .50-110. Then, in 1892, Browning designed a scaled down version that fired cartridges in the Model 1873 class, like .44-40. Browning designed the smokeless powder Model 1894 in .30-30 and the Model 1895 in .30-40 Krag, .303, 7.62x54r, .30-06, and the powerful .405. Additionally, beside the single shot and this series of lever action rifles, Browning designed a matching lever action shotgun, the Model 1887, the Model 1893 pump, and the world's first successful pump shotgun, the Model 1897.

In short, with Browning's designs in their pocket, Winchester had come back to the rifle market with a vengeance, and had become the 800 pound gorilla!

Then, Winchester made a very foolish mistake. Browning, the legend goes, had noticed the grass blowing in front of the muzzle of his shotgun while shooting, and began to wonder if that power could be harnessed to make a self loader. From this development effort, he began work on a long recoil design that created a rifle which competed against these that we're talking about here, the Remington Model 8 and 81, and the legendary first successful semiauto shotgun, which we usually know as the Browning A5.

From Browning's point of view, he had created the designs that made Winchester huge amounts of money, for which he was paid a flat sum for his patent rights on each design. After all of these marketing successes, Browning decided he wanted a royalty for his rights that was based on the number of guns sold: He wanted a share of the profits, not just a check.

Winchester refused to agree. They saw no reason to give away their profits and furthermore, they were selling lever action rifles and Model 1897 pumps like there was no tomorrow, so they let Browning walk. What a foolish mistake, to let the world's greatest-ever firearms genius walk for their own short term greed!

Winchester then turned to their in-house designer, T C Johnson, who had designed that first semiauto blowback .22, the Model 03. Johnson expanded on the simple blowback principle to bring out the centerfire versions of the Model 03, the Models 05, 07, and 10.

For the shotgun, Winchester had a similar problem. In working with Browning until he walked, the Winchester lawyers had drawn up the patents so they would prevent competitors from successfully duplicating their products. Now that Browning was "the competition" (he took his designs to Remington, which was more than happy to pay Browning the royalty he wanted), Winchester had to build a rifle that wouldn't violate Browning's design, protected by the wording of their own lawyers' language!

Johnson's answer to the Remington Model 11, which we more commonly know as the Browning A5, was the Winchester Model 11. It was called "The Widowmaker", because the cocking lever we usually see sticking out of the side of semiauto actions (like the cocking lever on an AK 47) was patented. So the Widowmaker was cocked by grabbing the barrel and pushing it back. Since the recoil spring was pretty stiff, the gun's buttstock was often placed on the ground and the barrel jacked like a pogo stick -- now you can see where the term "Widowmaker" comes from!

And, you can also see why the Winchester Self Loader rifles are cocked by pressing that rod that sticks out of the front of the fore end!

The Remington Model 11 went on to be fantastically successful, and the design is still made today. The Winchester Model 11 didn't last very long, understandably.

The Remington Model 8 and its improved successor, the Model 81, sold about as many units in total as the centerfire versions of the Winchester Self Loaders. They are built around the same general long recoil design of the Browning A5 shotgun, where the barrel recoils all the way to the rear of the action while locked to the bolt, and then is released before the bolt.

Image

The Remington Model 8, competitor to the Winchester Self Loading line of rifles. This example is fitted with a "police" magazine, meant for law enforcement use.

The locked breach of this design allowed Browning and Remington to introduce more useful cartridges for the rifle. The first four were:

.25 Remington, about equal to the .25-35 cartridge then available in lever action rifles.

.30 Remington, about equal to the .30-30

.32 Remington, about equal to the .32 Winchester Special

.35 Remington, about equal to the .401 Winchester Self Loading, and still offered today in the Marlin 336 lever rifle as a deer cartridge.

It should be noted that these cartridges are not straight sided cases like those of the Self Loading Winchester lineup. They were chosen to compete against cartridges available in competitors' products, but in a semiauto rifle. Blowback designs are not so amenable to bottleneck cartridges like the Remington, because chamber pressures as the action is opening can force the shoulder of the cases forward, causing problems.

Finally, Remington was able to offer the 300 Savage cartridge as a choice for the Model 81, a superior cartridge for almost every purpose to the rest of those discussed here; a cartridge that could not be offered in a blowback design like the Winchester due both to pressure and shape.

Browning was not yet even at the peak of his talents, as he went on to design the Colt-Browning, .30, and .50 caliber machine guns, the BAR, a series of semiauto pistols, culminating in the 1911 and the High Power, a 37mm cannon, the famous Superposed over and under shotgun, the Colt Woodsman .22 semiauto pistol, the Stevens 520 and Ithaca Model 37 shotguns, the Browning .22 Rifle, and other designs. This was the treasure trove of talent Winchester had lost by refusing Browning's terms.

Summary

TC Johnson took the blowback principle to about the greatest extent possible in the Winchester Self Loading series. By doing so, he was able to mount a respectable response for his company against the departure of Browning. He was also able to capitalize on the reliability of the blowback design, an important factor in the 351's use in law enforcement circles.

These rifles are well made and finished, and offer a degree of quality that far exceeds what is available today on the weapons market.

The Winchester Self Loaders also played a very interesting role in the history of firearms design and firearms business, standing in the center of the great dispute between what was then a major global firearms maker and the great firearms genius of the ages.
“Fanaticism consists of redoubling your efforts when you have forgotten your aim.”

saying in the British Royal Navy

For Advertising mail webmaster
User avatar
xl_target
Old Timer
Old Timer
Posts: 3488
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:47 am
Location: USA

Re: Winchester Self Loading rifles, Models 03, 05, 07, and 1

Post by xl_target » Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:58 am

Very well done Tim!
An excellent read, clear, concise and informative. I didn't know much about these self loaders before this post.
Thanks!
“Never give in, never give in, never; never; never; never – in nothing, great or small, large or petty – never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense” — Winston Churchill, Oct 29, 1941

User avatar
The Doc
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 1253
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:25 am
Location: India.

Re: Winchester Self Loading rifles, Models 03, 05, 07, and 1

Post by The Doc » Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:42 am

:clap: An excellent post. Thanks Timmy.

best,
Rp.
It's always better to have a gun and not need it than need a gun and not have it !

winnie_the_pooh
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 1767
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:49 pm

Re: Winchester Self Loading rifles, Models 03, 05, 07, and 1

Post by winnie_the_pooh » Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:40 pm

Timmy,

Very informative post.I have only ever seen one of these in 351SL.The cocking system looked a bit dicey to me at that time.Considering the force required I unconsciously put the butt down on the floor to push down on the cocking button/rod and ended up looking down the barrel.The magazine was out and the rifle was unloaded but still.....

User avatar
Vikram
We post a lot
We post a lot
Posts: 5107
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:14 am
Location: Tbilisi,Georgia

Re: Winchester Self Loading rifles, Models 03, 05, 07, and 1

Post by Vikram » Sun Oct 16, 2011 3:31 pm

Timmy,

Excellent post and I educated myself on this little known,to me, range of rifles.Thank you.

winnie_the_pooh wrote:Timmy,

Very informative post.I have only ever seen one of these in 351SL.The cocking system looked a bit dicey to me at that time.Considering the force required I unconsciously put the butt down on the floor to push down on the cocking button/rod and ended up looking down the barrel.The magazine was out and the rifle was unloaded but still.....
:lol:


Best-
Vikram
It ain’t over ’til it’s over! "Rocky,Rocky,Rocky....."

prashantsingh
Poster of the Month - Aug 2011
Poster of the Month - Aug 2011
Posts: 1394
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:06 pm
Location: India

Re: Winchester Self Loading rifles, Models 03, 05, 07, and 1

Post by prashantsingh » Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:13 pm

Very informative write up.

arjun401
Learning the ropes
Learning the ropes
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:12 pm

Re: Winchester Self Loading rifles, Models 03, 05, 07, and 1

Post by arjun401 » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:16 am

thanks Timmy
very informative, to the point . . we all are enlightened !
never knew so much abt my gun.
arjun401

User avatar
timmy
Old Timer
Old Timer
Posts: 3027
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:03 am
Location: home on the range

Re: Winchester Self Loading rifles, Models 03, 05, 07, and 1

Post by timmy » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:11 am

I'm glad you saw this, Arjun, as it took me a little time after your post about your gun was made. You have a nice piece of firearms history and a high quality rifle, as well!
“Fanaticism consists of redoubling your efforts when you have forgotten your aim.”

saying in the British Royal Navy

arjun401
Learning the ropes
Learning the ropes
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:12 pm

Re: Winchester Self Loading rifles, Models 03, 05, 07, and 1

Post by arjun401 » Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:28 am

I am proud of it . . thanks to you!

regards
Arjun401

User avatar
timmy
Old Timer
Old Timer
Posts: 3027
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:03 am
Location: home on the range

Re: Winchester Self Loading rifles, Models 03, 05, 07, and 1

Post by timmy » Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:37 am

I thought of you yesterday; my Wife and I went to Cabela's and they had a .32 SL there for $799. It was in fine shape -- I can't ever recall seeing one in rough shape. $799 seems a bit steep to me, but then again, Cabela's is very proud of their used guns here. Actually, too proud 98% of the time. I've only seen a couple of deals in any store I've been in for the last 15 years.

I would guess that your 401 would be pretty valuable, but it's probably worth more as a special gun to you.
“Fanaticism consists of redoubling your efforts when you have forgotten your aim.”

saying in the British Royal Navy

User avatar
mundaire
We post a lot
We post a lot
Posts: 5410
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 5:53 pm
Location: New Delhi, India
Contact:

Re: Winchester Self Loading rifles, Models 03, 05, 07, and 1

Post by mundaire » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:23 am

Thank you for a fantastic read Timmy! :)

Cheers!
Abhijeet
Like & share IndiansForGuns Facebook Page
Follow IndiansForGuns on Twitter

FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHTS - JOIN NAGRI NOW!

www.gunowners.in

"Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire." -- Robert Heinlein

badcheetah
Learning the ropes
Learning the ropes
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:54 am
Location: New Delhi

Re: Winchester Self Loading rifles, Models 03, 05, 07, and 1

Post by badcheetah » Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:16 am

Timmy - this was a fantastic read . :agree:
but dont stop on this ,
looking forward to the next one.

:cheers:
Bad Cheetah Out ....

Cheetah Bhi Peeta Hai ...

User avatar
BowMan
One of Us (Nirvana)
One of Us (Nirvana)
Posts: 445
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:09 pm

Re: Winchester Self Loading rifles, Models 03, 05, 07, and 1

Post by BowMan » Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:17 pm

Very informative...bumped

BowMan

User avatar
rraju2805
One of Us (Nirvana)
One of Us (Nirvana)
Posts: 495
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:52 pm
Location: Kolkata , Bengal , India

Re: Winchester Self Loading rifles, Models 03, 05, 07, and 1

Post by rraju2805 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 7:08 pm

Thanx for the infomative pos.
YOU CAN FOOL SOME OF THE PEOPLE SOMETIME
BUT YOU CAN"T FOOL ALL OF THE PEOPLE ALL TIME

oneperfectshot
Fresh on the boat
Fresh on the boat
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:28 am

Re: Winchester Self Loading rifles, Models 03, 05, 07, and 1

Post by oneperfectshot » Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:56 am

Its quite informative . Excellent pieces of history. Well illustrated...

Post Reply