The Mighty .600 Nitro Express

[Vikram]

Come on penpusher. Stop ragging him. That affair of lifting the buff clean off its feet was I am sure a figure of speech.

Best-
Vikram

[eljefe]

velocity X velocity / 450240 x wt of the bullet in grains

would give the muzzle energy

[penpusher]

Size of grain=the biggest water melon that you can find.

Figure of speech.Nahhhh.Shahid has himself said that had he had a video camera/still camera at that time,we would have been treated to the sight of the Buffalo with it's feet in the air.

penpusher

[shahid]

-600 Nitro Express is usually 900 grains against the 750 of 577 REWA.

Our boys in the bush do not go back and forth to the old blighty all the time, but have invested in some excellent handloading equipment, where they have more control on what they load for most calibres inclusive of the 30-06 which is used the most. Although a few dozen original Kynoch loads are also always at hand for the unsuspecting.

Internet information is never the most authentic, bear that. However published records from the firm itself would be authentic because the manu.script passes through the the company, in this case H & H.

Brimingham has always been a source for Gun parts since the 17th century. The best of London Gunmakers always sourced a lot of parts through here.

Jeffery does hold a number of patents to his name and was a sales person earlier.

But he was very knowledgeable in Gun trade. If a business controls the design of a firearm, and gets it manufactured to specifications under his strict supervision and sells the weapon in his firms name, for all practical purposes he is a maker, even if not a single part was manufactured in his factory.

Is Toyota a car maker ? How many of the 60,000 parts of a Landcruiser are manufactured by Toyota ? Any idea ? Hardly any. 80 % of the drivetrain system comes from DENSO. Similarly for Mercedese it comes from BOSCH. So they are not car makers by your stantard, well you are entitled to your private opinions but me being a trained ISO 9000 auditor would classify Jeffery as a maker and award him 9001 certification by virtue of him being the master of DESIGN CONTROL, which is the most crucial thing in manufacturing.

H & H records say they purchased finished barrels for Nitro Express rifles, inclusive of .600 from Jeffery. If Holland writes it as a chronicled record, then he did make barrels, where ever he made them, no matter what some internet site believes.

At least you seem to agree that some H & H guns were made by W & C Scott. 200 is a significant figure.

Jeffery had shipped loads of their weapons to India and Africa. All major shooting states of India still possess many Jeffery Guns and Rifles and they are performing to perfection even today, decades and decades from production. W J Jeffery sure knew his business.

[Grumpy]

I`m not denying that Jeffery was a knowledgable individual and he did develope several new cartridges - including the .600 NE of course - as well as patenting gunsights and so on. He was NOT however a gunmaker and this has now been generally accepted.
If you believe everything that you read in books you must be very naive. New source material is coming to light all the time and accepted histories are having to be re-written all the time.
So what if H&H purchased .600 NE Barrels from Jeffery ? That doesn`t mean tht he made them, only that he supplied them. It is an absolute fact that Jeffery was not a barrel maker and had no facilities to make barrels. W.J.Jeffery never had a factory and only had a very small workshop for a few years. As to who actually made those barrels then there are several suggestions......George Gibbs is now known to have been making barrels for the trade - including Stephen Grant & Sons. That is information that only came to light last year...... when yet another Birmingham source for the manufacture of Jefferys guns also became known.
The six year use of the Scott factory to build the Cavalier is insignificant - as is the short eight year ownership of Webley & Scott. Scotts, and Webley & Scott, had a long history of building guns for H&H along with two or three other suppliers.
I believe that it IS important to ascribe the term `gunmaker` to actual gunmakers as otherwise the term is demeaned. There is little parallel with other businesses that outsource as Jeffery had no input into the design of the guns that bear his name........about all that he `designed` was the arcaded fences that feature on W.J.Jeffery guns. He bought the guns that bear his name from Birmingham trade makers.
There are many famous names of gun retailers who were not gunmakers and Jeffery was just one of them - Robert Churchill is another name to add to the list.
I haven`t even touched on Jefferys `doubtful` business dealings which lead to him being dismissed from his post as the manager of Webleys London showroom.

[mundaire]

I haven`t even touched on Jefferys `doubtful` business dealings which lead to him being dismissed from his post as the manager of Webleys London showroom.

Sounds interesting.... Lets hear it!

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[mehulkamdar]

Shahid,

The weight of a bullet in grains has NOTHING to do with penetration. Velocity is as important a factor, as are the shape of the bullet being used, it's length and sectional density. There are several long discussions on the Accurate Reloading forums on this subject and, indeed, the best penetration figures have been for the 375 Holland and Holland and the 416 Rigby, the former with a 300 grain bullet and the latter with a 400 grain one. Again, these are tests conducted by people who have hunted several dozens of elephant and buffalo, not armchair posturing or ad copy from a sales brochure.

Lutz Moeller has his own website which is mostly in German but he posts these days on the Accurate Reloading forums as does Norbert Hansen who designed the Superpenetrator bullet. Other ballisticians are Chris Bekker, Gerard Schulz of GS Custom, Kobus Van Der Westhuizen of Rhino bullets Harold Ledbetter etc. And, none of these people are out to sell any product in their discussions unlike the sole source that you have to quote from.

Grumpy,

Please do post about the Jeffery history. Yes, these historical articles are very interesting and I must second Abhijeet's request.

Cheers!

[Grumpy]

Just noticed that a short post of mine, a response to Asifs recitation of the energy formula has been removed.

[penpusher]

Mehul,

We are talking about impact rather than penetration,devastating effect rather than just plain dropping dead, using a .577 Rewa on a Cape Buffalo being akin to killing flies with a sledge hammer/shooting Sprinbooks wiht a .375 H&H Magnum.So big bullet+high velocity= massive impact,sufficient to lift a buffalo off its feet.Migh be just a figure of speech though

penpusher

[Grumpy]

In 1887 Philip Webley arranged to take on the lease of 60, Queen Victoria Street as Webleys London showroom and engaged W.J.Jeffery as manager. Webley returned to Birmingham and left Jeffery to finalise the lease arrangements.
In 1888 following Philip Webleys death, Thomas William Webley discovered that Jeffery had taken out the lease in his own name and Webley were renting the shop premises from their own manager. Webley immediately dismissed Jeffery. The incident so soured Webleys opinion of London that they abandoned the idea of a London showroom for several years. Jeffery very conveniently opened his own business from the location..

[shahid]

Releaders and reloaders. Each in pursuit of the elusive gold like an Alchemist. Each claims to have made the ultimade wildcat cartridge. As long as it works for him fine.

My boys on the veld, learn things the hard way. By experience. Actual shooting experience, loads of it every single day and night because they are hunters for a living. Some very unpleasant jobs like going after a wounded Lion in the bush, after being wounded by a client's fire comes their war. Getting close to Elephants and to ensure that the Buffalo is down and not charging at the client and the hunting group is very different from blasting off rounds of ammo and smoke and fire and discuss about it in the safety of a club house over a cigar.

Here this is a matter of life and death of many individuals.

The AMerican obsession with velocity is not of too much concern in Africa ( with these boys at least ). What is important is hydrostatic shock and down range accuracy and down range energy. The bullet must give the maximum wound channel on the dangerous big game.

Their own experimentations have derived some very good products and some poor products as well.

FOr example one afternoon we did not feel like any serious hunting, the bags over the past three days had been extremely good and everyone in our party had already bagged what he was after. We had three more days to go in beautiful Africa and were enjpying our days in the weld. The group just went along to swim in a waterfall with a natural pool near the concession. While there we decided to look up some Guiena Fowls. Matt, one of the PH blokes, offered me a no. 4 shot he had loaded with his own concutions. It was a disaster. I shot at a Guiena Fowl, pecking hardly at 20 yards in a clearing. A huge bellow of black smoke came out and the target was totally obscured. I had no idea what was happening ahead and I missed a sitter. Imagine ! but like its said, all in the game, no hassle. On the other extreme, the Rifle Cartridges these blokes load are so good. I am very impressed with their loads for the WIn .243, 30-06 and .375 Mag and of course for their Big Bandooki ( a term derived from their Zulu helpers ) which means the Gibbs .577.

They also have WIn .270 and Weatherby 300 and WIn .458 for their clients, but I never tried these in Africa.

[mehulkamdar]

penpusher,

Agree completely. Hyperbole is, indeed, a figure of speech.

[shahid]

Arm Chair umpiring does not get results. Here we have spent sweat and blood in the African weld. And Matt, John Sharp and his boys who earn money by hard physical work every day.

Come to Africa and see for yourself what a .375 does to a Springbook, or a .577 does to a Buffalo. Carry a camera and record it, but do not go around making statements like people who have never experienced any shooting or hunting. You guys are experienced shooter.

Once I shot a .22 LR, IOF, KF round into a tin of Asian paints paint on the rooftop. I aimed for the Asian Paints mascot Gattu on the tin, it was filled with paint.

The tiny 40 grain bullet lefted the tin 6 to 8 inches in the air. It was shot at from 30 yards.

It happens. You guys got to experience it then you will believe. Even if you don't it makes no difference to me. Maybe I will see more buffalos being knocked off that way. Maybe I won't but I have seen enough. Anyway I no longer shoot what I don't eat. I do not like the coarse Buffalo meet, so will no longer waste $ 4,000 to bag one. Others in my group might want it so I might experience more if some other shooter friend wishes to use the .577 REWA on it. Maybe he will use the 300 Weatherby or the .375 instead and the results of the felling Buffalo will be different.

[mehulkamdar]

Since velocity does not matter and only the calibre does, here is something that should lift a Cape Buffalo off it's feet:

[mehulkamdar]

Shahid,

BS is BS whether it comes from you or our resident troll. A bullet with 7600 ft lbs of energy simply does not have the energy to lift a Cape Buffalo weighing between 1700 and 2000 lbs off it's feet. Not unless you have an anti gravity device built into the bullet.

Had you paid more attention to physics at school, this BS would not have come up. Or maybe this should be called CBS with the CB standing for Cape Buffalo.