Buying Knives and other sharp n shiny objects in Rajasthan.

[Rajat]

You are quite right about the combination of the two steels to produce these patterns. Even in earlier times this kind of a sword would not have stood up to the rigours of battle. This was a out and out durbar sword. To be carried for state occasions and such or maybe a bit of light usage.

I agree with Katana ji. This is not what you would see on the battlefield.

[mundaire]

Stumbled across this thread a few days back and ended up reading every single page; a gripping discussion with some really great information!

BTW 4-5 years back I'd picked up an old sword from one of the places (in Jaipur) mentioned by Moin, will try and click a few photos to post here.

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[mundaire]

Here are the photos of what I'd picked up from India Arts & Crafts (Nanhe Mian's shop mentioned earlier in this thread by Moin). Seemed genuinely old to me, how old I have no clue.

The hilt has the remnants of some sort of silver overlay work, I don't know what it's called. Even though the sword was heavily oiled, there was a fair amount of corrosion visible on the hilt; I assume the rust must have been there before Nanhe Mian got his hands on it. Since I did not know how to restore it, I've left it as it is with a fresh coat of oil every few months - which (I hope) will help prevent further deterioration. Any advice on preventing further decay would be much appreciated.

It came with a scabbard of recent vintage, but with tattered cloth. Shooter's dad got that fixed for me, and she now wears a leather scabbard in decent nick and hangs from one of the walls at home along with a Pesh Kabz (a friend had got that back with him from Kabul).

Cheers!
Abhijeet

-- 21 Sep 2011 10:19 am --

P.S. @ Rajat - further to the point raised by you; the hilt on this one is somewhat of a snug fit as well. Prior to reading the discussion on this thread, I had assumed that this may have belonged to a teenager or a woman; thanks to you gents I'm better informed now!

[Katana]

mundaire,

The blade seems to be old, but not faulad. Hilt is steel, engraved, could have had silver filigree work earlier but I somehow doubt it. I sincerely suggest you do not try to 'restore' it. A scabbard in black leather would be fine with this. Please do not use any gun oils to keep it rust free. Coconut oil is best for such pieces.

This example seems to be from north Rajasthan/ western MP/ eastern UP, according to the hilt design.

Would love to see that peshkabz from Kabul.

[mundaire]

Katana, thank you for your inputs, they are really appreciated. Will most certainly put to use your tip on using coconut oil in stead of other oils. There definitely is silver on the surface, as some of it was flaking off when I got it first and it has since oxidised to the typical black just like silver jewellery/ cutlery.

I'd posted some photos of the Pesh Kabz sometime back, let me see if I can search for that post... found it - http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=6318

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[Katana]

Saw the pics. This is Farsi (Persian) not Afghan. The engraving of dogs hunting deer is also quite rare in Islamic weaponry, although not totally unheard of.

I also saw your post following the peshkabz pics wherein you have mentioned your friend restoring Babur's tomb.

What really hurts me is the fact that the Indian Govt. has spend a considerable sum of money helping out the Afghans with Islamic heritage, but have made no attempt, infact stiffled attempts to bring back the remains of Prithi Rai (Prithviraj Chauhan, the gaadipati of dhillika or delhi) from Ghazni.

The only person to attempt something similar was Maharaja Ranjit Singhji of the Sikh Khalsa, who brought back the gates to Somnath from Ghazni, offered them to the Somnath temple, which the pandas declined and were subsequently put up in the Har Mandir Sahib in Amritsar. Unfortunately, these gates no longer exist and were destroyed during Operation Bluestar.

Sorry to go OTT, but couldn't resist.

[mundaire]

Katana, Interesting comment that, regarding the Farsi origin. What identifies it as such? I am really curious to learn more. I guess a Farsi influence or origin would be unsurprising considering Afghanistan & Iran's shared border, in fact unless I am mistaken there is a sizeable Irani/ Farsi population in Afghanistan. I too was under the impression that Islam forbids the depiction of animals in art, and was similarly intrigued when I saw the engravings on the blade.

Incidentally my friend was not working for the Indian Govt. He was at the time (still is) in the employ of the Aga Khan Trust for Culture. Taking this thread further OT, their largest (current) restoration project happens to be in India - http://www.nizamuddinrenewal.org/ . Of course you are right about the Indian Govt. spending large amounts of money in Afghanistan.

While (like most others) I too have opinions on the last two paras, lets skip the politics and bring this thread back to blades

I recall a conversation I had (some years back) with Shooter's dad about how the hilt & scabbard of a sword signified rank and one could not carry a sword signifying a higher rank (even if one could afford it), the penalty for doing so was harsh. Would you/ anyone else have more details on how to identify rank based on hilt/ scabbard/ sword design & ornamentation? What were the other ways to 'wear rank' in those days? I guess the turban would be one?

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[shooter]

What really hurts me is the fact that the Indian Govt. has spend a considerable sum of money helping out the Afghans with Islamic heritage, but have made no attempt, infact stiffled attempts to bring back the remains of Prithi Rai (Prithviraj Chauhan, the gaadipati of dhillika or delhi) from Ghazni.

Katanaji i understand your feelings and such news is good material for the govt. and/or media to play with our emotions. however due to international boundries etc these things become very difficult.
Aslo imagine the polish govt. asking for remains of mother teresa and artefacts related to her work or the greek govt. asking for our national symbol ashik pillar or several other artefacts. or even half of them as chandragupt's wife was greek and thus the mauryan dynasty was half greek.
Or afghan govt. asks for sher shah's remains. Or Spain asks back for the body of St. Xavier.

Indian govt. tried real hard for the bamiyan statues to be relocated but the then afghan govt. refused.
As re: prithviraj's tomb, it has a significant cultural value for people there and has been this way for almost a 1000 years.(though we may not like what they do) but now that tomb is more part of their culture than the chhatris of rana sanga, rana pratap, rana hamir, rana kumbha, raja chhatrasal rani lakshmi bai have ever been for us. In fact even in this forum where most people are educated with university education, travelled the world etc, most people wont know where they are (if not for google).
If the remains of prithviraj was in india, we wouldnt even look at it, one thing is sure we would find "raju loves meena" written on it, inside a big heart scraped on it with a pepsi bottlecap.

Afghanistan is uneducated country; but every citizen of ghazni and the area around it, even kids know about the kaffir raja prithvi.
Whereas our historians try to disprove the incident of a blind man firing an arrow as myth, every begger there knows of how a blind man in shackles killed their sultan.
Due to king prithviraj being such a part of the culture there, it can be very difficult to dig open the tomb and bring the remains here. Since the indian kings were cremated, one never has had time to study the skeletons. In case of mughals, it will be considered sacrilageous to do such studies (poor pharohs, yes we studied them under x rays but then the mighty mughals arent deserving of such 'horrible' treatment).

If we get the remains, it would be very interesting to examine them to gain more insight into the blinding, battle wounds, height and build, age at death, physical condition at the time of death etc.

I wish to state again that i am NOT agreeing with what is done with the tomb in Ghazni but just stating some difficlties and practical realitiy.

[Katana]

First, about the peshkabz: the blade is 'flatter' when seen from the side. Indian (Rajput-Mughal)blades would have a greater curvature to penetrate chain mail which was used more on the sub continent, while Persian armour, in generic nature, was more of a leather job studded with brass rivets. The diamond cross section of the peshkabz was required to penetrate the studs, thereafter the leather could be penetrated with a straighter blade.

Secondly, the hilt. Indian blades would have a more pronounced hilt, especially the 'tola', for a firmer grip for that extra punch to penetrate the chain mail and cotton vestments behind that. Yours is slimmer, and the pommel is virtually absent. See the attached pic, the second one from right.

BaradSahebSwords 005 (Small).jpg

Weapon design is forever migratory. We are seeing it even today. For example the defense forces INSAS being an amalgam of 3 sources. As such even in earlier times designs were adopted according to what came to be used abroad and subsequently adopted for a particular purpose.

The peak of ornamentation of edged weapons was reached sometime during Shah Jahan's reign and was in sync with similar methods used in Persia (Shah Abbas II) and Turkey( Ottoman Empire). Despite Islam forbidding such depiction, all 3 locations have 1 common denominator: Islam. No matter what the clerics said, the love of finer things prevailed.

As far as rankings are concerned, one has to study the military and administrative set ups of the Rajputs and Mughals to understand it. It is an immense topic and should be covered elsewhere. However, I must point out that the arms in toto did not signify just rank . At a 'ashubh' time like a funeral or such the king would carry simple sword with absolutely no ornamentation and just a leather scabbard, while in durbar he could be carrying a sword studded with Golconda diamonds. At another time he would keep an unsheathed sword during certain occasions.

Rank was denoted mostly by standards, kettle drums and bracelets among the mansabdars and jagirdars. But the foot soldiery would be recognised through their helmets and pugrees. The Mughals generally provided arms to the soldiery but the Rajput bought and carried his own arms and steed, so they tend to be more artistic and cared for.

-- Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:56 pm --

I think we should let Prithi Rai rest in Ghazni as yet, despite him being 'battle wounded' every day even after maybe a 1000 years. I'm sure people have their opinions but this one is really touchy.

Sorry I brought it up.

[Rajat]

P.S. @ Rajat - further to the point raised by you; the hilt on this one is somewhat of a snug fit as well. Prior to reading the discussion on this thread, I had assumed that this may have belonged to a teenager or a woman; thanks to you gents I'm better informed now!

Yes, since the beginning this thread made for some very interesting reading and discussions. Thanks to Moin

Actually the small hilt is the first thing that people note about most of these swords. Discussing the origins and engineering again was quite interesting!

[Moin.]

Yahoo ! 100 Posts in the thread

Abhijeet, I assuming you have paid 30 to 40 k in purchasing the sword from India Arts and Crafts.

Katanaji, you must have been a history teacher in your previous 'janam'.

Thank You Sir Rajat and of course Katanji for taking the time out to share and answer all the queries however idiotic they have been. But I've read somewhere that It's better to ask and look like a fool than not ask and be a fool for ever .

Best Regards
Moin.

[Katana]

Moin,

No query is idiotic for me. If I myself don't know, I too would do the same as you are doing.........delve deeper into the subject.

[mundaire]

Yahoo ! 100 Posts in the thread

I'm not surprised, considering the wealth of information on this thread - once again thank you for starting this thread.

Abhijeet, I assuming you have paid 30 to 40 k in purchasing the sword from India Arts and Crafts.

I was offered more than that for it in Delhi, but I'm not selling... Anyhow, I paid substantially less than what you have quoted. This was 4 to 5 years ago and I had my father-in-law at hand (my in-laws are based in Jaipur) who sweet talked Nanhe Mian's son into parting with it for what seemed like a fairly reasonable price.

In fact I've picked up old (but plainer) swords sans decoration/ scabbards in other parts of Rajasthan (really small towns) for fairly reasonable sums as well; those were on request from friends/ presents for friends and since I do not have them on me any more I cannot share photos. But I can say this, if you keep your eye open without being too eager, and are not too hung up on overly decorated blades; old (working) blades can still be had at relatively reasonable prices. Not sure for how long they will continue to be available at those prices...

Cheers!
Abhijeet

[Moin.]

Thank You Abhijeet, how I itch to travel to Rajastahn and pick uk a few more of these, specially now that I have been reading about these a lot.

Katanaji, a few more queries if I may

1) When you say the blade of Abhijeet's sword is not Faulad, what does it imply. Faulad in general usgae in Hindi implies steel, ie an alloy of Iron and Carbon. Will all blades by default not be this ? If not what is the defining characteristic of the blade that you see in the pic that identifies it as not being made of ?

2) I have seen a documenatry on National Geographic on the Japanese Katana and how th blade if forged staright and then the blade acquires it characteristc curve during tempering with water. Is the curve of the Talwar, shamsheer etc shaped in a similar manner during tempering or is hammered or forged into shape.
Is 'paani Chadana' same as tempering ?

3) How does one identify the origin of the blade by observing the design of the hilt and the blade ? I mean how do you so easily identify the Talwar is from Mewar region or from Lahore or MP etc. Specially as the indian incaranation of the Tawlar has so many influences right from the design of the hilt and the blade to the ornamentation.

4) What is a Sakela Blade

5) Till I lay my hands of Feigel a question on Damascus. Are any old blades with Jauhars visible true damascus as in made from Wootz. This Faux Damascus or acid etching concept should be relativley new. The Mughal Charra swords etc whose pics you shared had damascened blades where the Jauhars were visible but were not so pronounced as the Acid Etched ones I have, the same in the Lehariya Kindi. How is this damascening done by the Sikligars?

Lastly the decorative sword with the bidri work and the camel bone handle, the blade has loosened from the hilt ie where the Lak holds it in place. The blade wobbles a bit. Is there an easy way to fix it.

Thank You.


Best Regards
Moin.

[Rajat]

Moin, I will write briefly as am in a hurry right now.

Faulad here means Damascus or the wootz steel and not just steel or iron in the common terms.

The curve of the blade is hammered into shape. A straight bar or piece or metal is taken and then it is constantly heated and hammered / forged into the desired shape and thickness. This is the way it is traditionally done although there might be other techniques too.

Is 'paani Chadana' same as tempering: Probably, this is a local term and there might be different terms used to describe the tempering process. Oil is also used to temper the blades. In fact some craftsmen use both in different processes.

Identifying the blade by the hilt. There are some very obvious things and there are some finer details. I will leave this to Katanaji for the moment. He will do a better job explaining this in detail

Sakela or Sankela is another variation of Damascus in which the Jauhar/ rosettes or the wavy patterns are a bit larger (I do not mean darker or more pronounced) and it is comparatively less older in comparison to Faulad. This is my observation and there might be other explanations too. Most of the Faulad swords have a "fold mark" on the spine but the Sankela swords might not have this.

Yes, many old blades made out of Faulad / Damascus are the wootz blades. The Jauhar are visible but never pronounced and are very fine in size.

I hope this answers a few of your queries.

-- Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:02 pm --

Oh and although it is not really a do it yourself thing. It can be fixed again by heating the hilt and pushing the Lac in tightly around the blade or taking it apart and re fixing it Do not attempt this yourself with your sword due to the material it is made out of and the work on it. You will have to leave it at the moment to be done by a skilled person later on.