Springfield 30.06 vs Dragunov SVD

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Re: Springfield 30.06 vs Dragunov SVD

Post by jonahpach » Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:17 am

timmy wrote:Mr. Mehta:

In one sense, you are "comparing apples to oranges," for the Dragunov is not exactly a sniper rifle, to which you are comparing it.

However, regarding cartridges: as Jonah notes, the .30-'06 was replaced in the USA's arsenal by the .308, or 7.62x51. The 7.62x51 is a shortened version of the .30-06; its purpose was to permit the same ballistics in a shorter round, which, in turn, would allow shorter and more efficient automatic weapons -- both machine guns and shoulder arms.

The smaller capacity case of the .308 achieved this by using more modern propellents, notably Olin's (Olin was Winchester's parent company and a chemical company, like DuPont) then-new "ball powder." When comparing smaller cases with larger cases, when operating at the same pressures, the smaller case will generally come closest to matching the performance of the larger case with lighter bullets. It is with the heavier bullets that the larger case will usually show the larger advantage.

You mention a 200 fps velocity difference between the .30-'06 and the .308: that much variance can be encountered with the same round in different kinds of rifles. It is not that much of a difference.

Please note that the case capacity and performance of the 7.62x54r cartridge that was originally used by the Tsarist Russian army and is also used in the Dragunov over 100 years later comes pretty close to the .308's performance. Also note that the whole US effort to obtain a battle rifle to replace the .30-40 Krag amounted to a lot of copying from the M98 Mauser -- enough of a copy that, when the rifle came out, the USA had to pay royalties to Mauser for patent infringements. In the areas where the USA didn't copy from Mauser, some of those "improvements" turned out to be less capable than the original Mauser design.

The .30-'06 cartridge was the USA's "improvement" of the 7.92x57 (8mm) round, and as such, did not offer any great improvement in performance and was longer, requiring a longer action to handle it. The .308 was, in essence, a recognition and correction of this choice: A realization that the job needing to be done was better addressed with a shorter cartridge.

This said, the .30-'06 has proven to be a very popular round, as its case capacity allows a lot of variations in loads. For the military, this is not so important: the military is not using the cartridge to hunt everything from ground squirrels to elephants.

The gist of what I've said so far is that, for the intended purpose of a sniper rifle, the old 7.62x54r round's performance compares quite well with the .308 (7.62x51) round the USA currently uses -- the one the USA chose to replace the .30-'06.

I would also note here that the calibration of sights, 1300m for the 7.62x54r and 2300m for the .30-'06 is not to be taken as an indication of the ranges these two cartridges are capable of driving tacks: closely clustered groups required for effective sniping. Rather, the 1300m sighting is a range that one might reasonably expect as maximum for sniping with the 7.62x54r. 2300m is the range that would be used back in the WW1 era for "Volley Fire," where troops would lay down a long range fire similar to yeoman archers laying down a covering fire of arrows at Agincourt. Such "Volley Fire" is no longer used in the military. You can see an example of this in the SMLE rifle used by Indian forces and chambered in 7.62x51: the originals used the volley fire 2000m calibrated sights inherited from the SMLE No.1 Mk III days, but the Indian 2A1 modification had limited range calibration only out to 800m, but still using the same cartridge and practically the same rifle.

I suggest that the calibration of the sights you are quoting as a reference to the potency of the cartridge has much more to do with the use each rifle was intended to be put to on the battlefield.

Now, regarding the rifle; the Dragunov vs. some bolt action rifle, then the comparison is also shaded by military, as opposed to hunting and sporting, considerations. The USA has used both M70 Winchester and M700 Remington bolt action sniper rifles.

Here, I would note that the use of a hunting rifle as a sniper weapon has some ramifications. A number of measures are taken to adapt a commercially available hunting rifle for military use -- the US forces don't just go down to the local WalMart and buy a M700 with a Leupold scope and head out to the battlefield with it.

The Soviets, on the other hand, have a very long history of sniping, and have spent many years developing it. There is some divergence here between the US and the Soviet practice.

The USA, after WW2, practically dropped its sniper program that it had developed from scratch during that war. During the Korean conflict and Vietnam, the USA had to restart sniper development again.

The Soviet Union, however, paid a great deal of attention to sniping and used snipers as an integral part of their battlefield tactics. One of these tactics was to leave snipers in place behind when their main forces retreated, which allowed their snipers to open fire on the enemy's back when counterattacks were made. Their tactics called for large numbers of snipers and which, therefore, required a great number of sniper rifles.

While the USA, even in the design of the M1903 Springfield, stressed individual marksmanship (The M1903 Springfield was rightly renowned for its inherent accuracy, mainly due to the more effective bedding the receiver design permitted, as compared to the M98 Mauser), The Russians in Tsarist days saw the rifle as a support for their main weapon: the bayonet, used in massed infantry charges.

Thus, the Mosin Nagant rifle was much simpler and, to some eyes, more crude than either the M1903 Springfield or the M98 Mauser.

However, the old saw that has been quoted on this site before is true and should be kept in mind: The Germans used the best sporting rifle (M98), the British used the best battle rifle (SMLE), and the USA used the best target rifle (M1903). The Russians used the Mosin Nagant for all 3 purposes.

Keep in mind that target rifles based on the Mosin Nagant receiver continued to be used in and win in competition by the Soviet Union and Finland long after WW2!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62_Tkiv_85

Anyway, the Soviets in WW2 did not use special match grade Springfields for their snipers; they used M91-30 Mosin Nagants taken right from the assembly lines. Rifles that proved exceptionally accurate were selected for sniper use and fitted with scope sights. When the rifles lost their sniper accuracy, they were often returned to front line troop use.

The point I wish to illustrate here is that the US doctrine comes from a nation of marksmen that sees sniping as a small, elite corps, fitted with specialized weapons. The Soviet doctrine saw sniping as an extension of its massive army, equipped with weapons that were much more like what the front line troops carried.

In addition to this, the Dragunov was not intended for the same sort of specialized sniper use that the USA uses modified bolt action hunting rifles for. Refer to this wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragunov_sniper_rifle
The Dragunov was designed as a squad support weapon, since according to Soviet and Soviet-derived military doctrines the long-range engagement ability was lost to ordinary troops when submachine guns and assault rifles (which are optimized for close-range and medium-range, rapid-fire combat) were adopted.
For this kind of duty, more firepower than a bolt action hunting rifle is called for. A semi-automatic weapon is more desirable for long range squad support.

So, I would reply to your question by saying that the Indian Army's use of the Dragunov, rather than some bolt action weapon, may be more suitable for the tactical situations that the military doctrine specifies them to be deployed in.

To put this another way, please consider the final part of the wiki on the Dragunov:
The Dragunov is an original rifle design for several reasons. First, it was not meant for highly trained and specialized sniper teams, but rather for designated marksmen, spread in every basic infantry unit. In every platoon of Warsaw Pact troops, there was a Dragunov rifle marksman. In the German Democratic Republic arsenals alone, there were almost 2,000 Dragunov rifles,[10] while in many Western armies there was not even a single sniper rifle except in special forces units (as example, in the Italian Army until the 1990s), but in Warsaw Pact troop formations, the Dragunov marksmen were widespread among the regular units. To fulfill this role the rifle is relatively light for a sniper rifle but well balanced, making it easier to use in a dynamic battle. It also is a semi-automatic rifle, a rare feature for accuracy oriented rifles in the 1960s (except for customized ordnance, like M1 Garands), to allow rapid fire and quicker engagement of multiple targets. In order to fire effective API ammunition, its accuracy potential was slightly downgraded by shortening the twist rate, another uncommon priority for a pure sniper rifle. Its precision is good but not exceptional, also because it has a relatively light barrel profile. Like an assault rifle, the rifle has mounts on the barrel to fix a bayonet. The standard AKM bayonet can even be used to cut barbed wire. Lastly, the rifle was meant to be a relatively cheap mass produced firearm.

These features and unusual characteristics were driven by the tactical use doctrine of Dragunov armed marksman which was; from (just behind) the first line targeting high value targets of opportunity and providing special long-distance disrupting and suppressive fire on the battlefield, even with sudden close encounters with enemy troops in mind. A relatively small number of marksman could assist conventional troops by combating or harassing valuable targets and assets such as: enemy key personnel like officers, non-commissioned officers and radio operators, exposed tank commanders, designated marksman and snipers, machinegun teams, anti-tank warfare teams, etc.
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Re: Springfield 30.06 vs Dragunov SVD

Post by xl_target » Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:03 am

goodboy_mentor wrote:For long distance sniping, a good bolt action rifle in 30-06 is likely to be more accurate than SVD. Famous American sniper Carlos Hathcock in Vietnam war who had 93 confirmed kills, generally used Winchester Model 70 30-06. I read somewhere that the rifle he was using, was with a fairly worn out barrel. But he was familiar with trigger and sight settings of his rifle and as to what trajectory the bullet is going to take, so he did'nt want to use any other rifle.
Another thing to keep in mind that Carlos Hathcock was no ordinary Marine. He was the winner of the 1965 Wimbledon Cup for shooting at 1000 yards. At 1000 yards, a man sized target looks like a human hair over iron sights. Most of us average Joe's has a hard time seeing that far let alone trying to hit a target at that range. Keep in mind too that this was an individual who used to snipe targets on the Ho Chi Minh trail at 2000 yards using a unmodified M2 .50 cal machine gun firing one shot at a time! As Timmy says , the US had (at that time) for all practical purposes dropped sniper tactics and employment. From what I recall from the Hathcock books, the rifles assigned to his squad in Vietnam were in poor shape from neglect. I don't recall them having shot out barrels but I do recall that they had to re-bed the actions and accurize the rifles. Also part of Carlos's success came from his exceptional skill in the woods. He had a very fined tuned sense of when to move around and when not to. His single-handed feat of stopping, pinning down and eventually destroying a whole company of N. Vietnamese troops has very few parallels in the annals of modern warfare. Most of his kills were reported by his spotter/s. Carlos himself never kept track of them. His actual score would have been significantly higher than the reported 93 kills.
If you get a chance, read the two books; Marine Sniper and Silent Warrior by Charles Henderson. They cover the life and career of Carlos Hathcock. They are very inspiring.

From a hunting standpoint, I would prefer the .30-06 in a tuned bolt action. However, since I have never hunted the open plains in the Western US or in Africa, in reality either cartridge would probably work well for me at the ranges that we hunt at here. Its just that in North America the 30-06 is available in a huge variety of loads for, as Timmy says, ground Squirrels to Elephants,

Tim, excellent and well researched post. Thank You.


On Further research:
Goodboy Mentor was correct. Carlos's rifle did infact have a dubious barrel.
Among these was the rifle that Carlos Hathcock used during his first tour in Vietnam, but Land says Carlos’ rifle was anything but a tack-driver:
“Snipers today talk about half-minute of angle. Carlos Hathcock’s rifle barrel looked like it had been sandblasted. On the inspection sheet, you’d say, ‘Slight pits throughout.’ His rifle would hold about two minutes of angle. That’s 20 inches at 1,000 yards and that’s what he had to work with.
“We had M1Cs and M1Ds available that would hold a minute of angle, but they didn’t maintain their zero.
“But Carlos’ rifle maintained its zero day in and day out.”
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Re: Springfield 30.06 vs Dragunov SVD

Post by Vikram » Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:30 pm

Tim an excellent post.I read it a few times and I will re-read it again.Thank you for taking the time.


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Re: Springfield 30.06 vs Dragunov SVD

Post by Sakobav » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:38 am

Vikram wrote:Tim an excellent post.I read it a few times and I will re-read it again.Thank you for taking the time.


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Re: Springfield 30.06 vs Dragunov SVD

Post by Safarigent » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:38 pm

great write up.
thanks
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Re: Springfield 30.06 vs Dragunov SVD

Post by MoA » Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:12 am

Assuming you are talking about the Garand, a comparison to the SVD/Daragunov is not even sesnible.

The SVD is a badly designed rifle capable of about 2 MOA on a good day. It gets the job done, and fits its purpose as a designated marksman rifle.

The Garand has better ergonomics, and possibly better ballistics.
Dragging hathcock into the conversation does nothing for either weapon. One might as well discuss Simo Hayha who makes Hathcock look like a wannabe. :cheers:

Additionally muzzle flash has nothing to do with either accuracy or lethality. Shot placement will alway beat caliber and ballistics.

Finally most engagements occur at under 100 meters. The skill required to shoot accurately at 1000 meters or more is a lot rarer than google wil lead you to believe. :cheers:

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Re: Springfield 30.06 vs Dragunov SVD

Post by shooter » Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:23 pm

dear as ever excellent post. very informative. thanks
Shot placement will alway beat caliber and ballistics.

hear hear. :agree: this is the bottom line plain and simple.
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Re: Springfield 30.06 vs Dragunov SVD

Post by TRX » Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:53 am

Safarigent wrote:Not only does the 30.06 have better range but also higher mv 2800 ft/sec vs 2600 ft/sec.
does that mean that a hunter with a 30.06 will be more lethal as compared to an indian army sniper with a SVD?
From a practical standpoint, the difference between hit by a 54R and an '06 would be about the same as being run over by a 2600 pound car vs. a 2800 pound car.

Muzzle velocity isn't everything. Both the 7.62x54R and .30-06 are more than sufficient to do their jobs. The '06 has been replaced by the .308/7.62x51 in most cases, but the 54R was designed 120 years ago and it's *still* in current service in many countries.

There are many gun "experts" who will tell you that even 25 feet per second is a big difference in cartridge performance. Just nod politely and ignore them...

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Re: Springfield 30.06 vs Dragunov SVD

Post by zombie » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:13 pm

Tim, great post. Couldn't have put it better. Difference between both weapons lies in design philosophies. It is similar to comparing AK-47 and M-16. Both good weapons in their own style, but with different design parameters.

Officially Dragunov was supposed to be used as "tactical support weapon". Purpose was to provide medium range firepower to an unit armed mostly with AK-series of weapons. If you check out pictures of our boy patrolling in J&K, you might notice that some of them carry Dragunov while others are armed with AK/Vz/INSAS. A rugged and powerful weapon, Dragunov is here to stay. MoD has imported 250 Galatz (marksmen version of Israeli Galil), but it sure can't replace Dragunov for sheer power and familiarity. In addition to Dragunov, some RR units also use MSG-90. MSG-90 is meant for military use and is pretty similar to PSG-1 that is primarily meant for police work.

Regarding stories about Dragunov, there are tonnes of them. In typical Russian style it might be nasty and ugly. But it is reliable and always gets the job done.

Sorry if OT.
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Re: Springfield 30.06 vs Dragunov SVD

Post by MoA » Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:27 pm

TRX 25 fps is a significant differentiator, variance of that much can mean the difference between a hit and a miss at longer ranges.

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Re: Springfield 30.06 vs Dragunov SVD

Post by zombie » Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:24 pm

Curious question - I believe SVD won't be used beyond 600 mt except in extremely rare circumstances. In that case would 25 m/s make a big difference?
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Re: Springfield 30.06 vs Dragunov SVD

Post by timmy » Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:58 am

Regarding the 25 fps variation, my point was only to note that the difference between guns could amount to 200 fps. However, I got to wondering, just how much change in point of impact might occur from a 25 fps variation between rounds? As a quick and dirty study, I checked out this online calculator site:

http://www.handloads.com/calc/

For the bullet, I used a .308 150 gr Sierra Spitzer with .408 ballistic coefficient. (In actuality, the round fired might have a slightly different bullet, but we are only examining the theoretical variation of a bullet's trajectory where a 25 fps spread occurs from round to round. I'm assuming a muzzle velocity of 2600 fps, rifle sighted in at 200 yards, a sight (scope) height of 1.5", no wind, and an altitude of 10,000 feet (J&K had been mentioned, so I pulled this figure from out of my hat.) The results:

2600 fps:

Range: 1000 yards Velocity: 1391 Impact: -339.66

2625 fps:

Range: 1000 yards Velocity: 1407 Impact: -332.46

So this is telling me that, in theory, a bullet launched 25 fps faster will hit about 7" higher at 1000 yards. Of course, this won't translate into what the difference would be in any particular rifle. It assumes a theoretical rifle of infinite rigidity (no harmonics) and eliminates any other variable except velocity. But it does give an idea of how much the point of impact might change due to velocity variations.

I'm not sure what this proves, if anything, but the question arose and I figured I'd look into it.

(BTW, at 600 yards, the calculated difference is 1.73")
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Re: Springfield 30.06 vs Dragunov SVD

Post by MoA » Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:33 am

Factor in Wind.
Also a 25 fps variation between rounds would be 2600, 2625, 2650, 2625 et al.

I believe like the 7.62x39 the 7.62x54 uses a .311 bullet and not .308 I am not completely familliar with the round, since I have never reloaded for it. Never bought the SVD since I didnt like the ergonomics.

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Re: Springfield 30.06 vs Dragunov SVD

Post by timmy » Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:04 am

MOA: I was only looking at a maximum spread of 25 fps -- any more than that would certainly affect the change in where a bullet impacts.

Regarding the bullet, yes, .311 might be right -- I'm not sure, as I've never slugged an SVD barrel. I do know that Mosin Nagants are quite famous for having a wide variation in both bore size and groove size (similar to SMLEs) so I guess you can take your pick. Some rifles work OK with a .308 bullet. But the issue here is the SVD. The biggest factor in these figures would be, however, the ballistic coefficient. Hornady has a .312 150 gr Interlock with a bc of .361. I picked 150 gr weight, because I thought it would be most representative of a 7.62 x 54r military load. What the bc of the bullet would be, I don't know. BTW, the Hornady looked more like a spire point than a spitzer, so I'm not sure it would be as representative of the military load as the one I picked. IMO, the figures would come close enough for horseshoes and hand grenades -- I wouldn't see a real life difference of, say, 30 inches or something like that. Of course, the faster the bullet, the less effect there is from wind. All I sought to do with find out just how much 25 fps would affect the point of impact. For sure, there's going to be a lot of other things that would affect this, including the difference between one rifle and another, even if they have come off of the assembly line one after the other. The only way one would really know would be by testing a particular rifle at the range.
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Re: Springfield 30.06 vs Dragunov SVD

Post by Ace_doc » Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:01 am

a bit tardy but here goes...
the svd can put two rounds around 1 inch apart at 750 mts firing with scope across a mountain stream with next to no wind doping. the instructor we had was also not really ballistic savvy. still that baby works when you do your part. i have no experience of using any match grade rifle and hence will not :oops: ( can not ) comment on how better a m70 would be. there is no argument from the customer when he gets hit by the bullet either ! :D

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