Buying Knives and other sharp n shiny objects in Rajasthan.

[winnie_the_pooh]

Quite a lot of information there.The only 'social group' that can be called skilled in the use of traditional arms at present is the 'Nihang's' .In fact in the episode of "Deadliest Warrior' pitting a Roman Centurion against a Rajput warrior,the role of the latter was performed by men from that sect or those taught 'Gatka' by them. For the rest,the traditional skills seem to have been lost surviving only amongst the practitioners of martial art forms like Kalari Payatu( I hope I got the name right),the swords being used only for social occasions(mostly marriages) or for decorating walls.

As far as the small hilts are concerned, I have a theory that that was probably to maintain grip and control.You do not want it to twist in your hands when you strike something. If it does,it really hurts.Quite a few of swords of that period that were wielded by men of large stature whom you would naturally expect to have large hands, have small hilts.Guru Hargobind,the Sixth Guru of the Sikhs is said to have been over 7 ft tall.If you check out the video below,the hilt of the katar that belonged to him is not unusually large http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nArLYH-IJ9g

[Rajat]

Shooter: There are two pictures relevant to the context in Visual treat for sword lovers: that of the Khanda and the talwar. But I still cannot make out how these afford a double handed grip.

Not that a double handed grip is necessary or is the best style for swords but still could not get to the point.

I also could not find the theory based on studies of psychological aspects of veneration of weapons across cultures. Double
Please post the link, It should be interesting.

Look at the picture that you have posed of the Shamsheer. The design, the balance, the weight, the hilt: a perfect slashing tool for fast strikes while on horseback. Another point is that fighting on horseback is much different then on foot. The blows, strikes and how a person would slash and still retain the blade in his hand depend on first of all the skills and secondly the weapon.

When slashing while on horseback the forward circular momentum of the blade is not easy to control without wrist movement and a good grip. Therefore the hilt, in whatever shape / design it might be, is curved toward the front which helps in retaining the grip when the sword is clenched in ones fist and secondly nothing to obstruct the movement, and dig into the base of the hand, when the wrist is bent forward due to the momentum. Which is unlike the katori on the traditional Talwar hilt.

Of course the purpose of designing and the designers were different.


Regarding the books, the truth is that I do not own or have read any comprehensive book (articles and reviews etc: Yes) on swords or Indian weapons. Whatever I know is through my own passion, personal experience, whatever was handed down to me, collecting, old sword smiths, some dealers, spending time since when I was in school with people and at places where ones gets to know such things. And secondly its not that I am only interested in old weapons etc but all styles contemporary and old.

This is the reason why although I have handled / seen / own / know about most edged weapons but I do not have a very strong knowledge of the terms / glossary of the parts / style of blades etc. Just used to speak about and discuss these in the local terms.

I have just received the first book in this topic a couple of days ago when Moin sent me one. So may be nows the time to catch up.

-- Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:42 pm --

Winnie: Thanks for the input and glad that you have joined the discussion.

But this is the point, the hilts are so small and tight that they do not offer a good and comfortable grip and not in the least if you would be wielding the sword for a long time. Secondly, In my opinion a tight and small grip does not offer better control necessarily. In fact if you strike something hard like a shield or an armour then in this case your hand would really hurt if it is a very tight and small grip.

[shooter]

Regarding the books, the truth is that I do not own or have read any comprehensive book (articles and reviews etc: Yes) on swords or Indian weapons. Whatever I know is through my own passion, personal experience, whatever was handed down to me, collecting, old sword smiths, some dealers, spending time since when I was in school with people and at places where ones gets to know such things. And secondly its not that I am only interested in old weapons etc but all styles contemporary and old.

Meant primarily (but not restricted to) for katana and his discussion with moin.

-- 26 Aug 2011, 14:05 --

There are two pictures relevant to the context in Visual treat for sword lovers: that of the Khanda and the talwar. But I still cannot make out how these afford a double handed grip.

Please see the pic of khanda and sosun patta. see how there is a metal bar extension from the pommel. that extension is approx 6 inches long. this will never be found in a tulwar.
This is long to afford the second hand to grip it IF NEEDED. You are right a double grip is not needed. You are also quite right in your observation re: the slashing action of the tulwar. I have tried tulwar on bakra necks (similar thickness to human necks) and when used as a slashing action, it decapitates much better and smoother than a hacking action. I wish i had means to try using tulwar for many hours and make a report.

My search into swordsmanship took me to the surviving descendant(s) of old rishis/acharyas who is in Paris but he says there are no manuscripts surviving re: dhanurved and old swordsmanship etc.
Thanks to indian govt. pig sticking and hence the fabled indian lancers and their techniques are dead too. Of course archery died centuries years ago and hence even today we dont get what was so great about drawing the bow by Raja Ramchandra and need to give it mystical properties and no one being able to LIFT it rather than DRAW it.

Note that the khanda is a hacking weapon and hence might need a second hand to reinforce the hacking strength. The only evolution i can see is the maratha patta there the wrist has no role at all and the sword is used for cutting/chopping/hacking (but not slashing) by the strength of deltoid/biceps/triceps and upper pectoralis major (chest muscle).

re: psuchological aspects of veneration of weapons ascoss periods and cultures i wasnt referring to an article but some modest study i have done in reading about the perceptions of people esp. the warriors re: their weapons.
I was surprised of similarities in indian, indinesian, viking, japanese cultures etc.
Im afraid its study not in terms of research but actual time spent studying weapons and cultural associations.

The skill is the most important as you say in all aspects of sports (fencing included). This statement reminds me about the vikings and their weapons etc. In the end the doccumentary concluded that it was the vikings and not the quality of their swords that made the difference.

Look at the english. During the 19th century, a russian swordmaker pointed out the inferior steel used in british weapons and a coarse study done back then showed a very high percentage of swords breaking during skirmishes. That didnt stop them from ruling the world.
On the other hand, indian steel/ 'true' wootz was one of the finest steel in the world but that didnt stop them from losing many wars.

Caucasian height has been on an average 3-4 inches more than indians. Also the caucasian height has increased by more than 2-3 inches in 200 years. but even so the hand width shouldnt vary for more than .5 inch (theoretically).

I did see the episode with interest and have discussed it personally with a member here. Many years ago a group people (myself included)were approached by an american saying he wants to produce a program about warriors that features the fighting styles and weapons of rajputs and he wants our input. At that time, none of us knew much/could be bothered. In fact the only ancient battle tactic i knew then about rajput warriors was the 'gol'/gole esp associated with the south east rajasthan.
Anyways we didnt reply and forgot all about it till this episode came out. Apparently they found some sikhs and filled them in as it was an indian fighting style and they were 'singh'. Of course they got the timeline wrong as they wanted to potray warriors from the beginning of the last millinea and the khalsa panth is relatively 'new'.

re: gatka, i am still not sure about its application in the battle front (as potrayed in the programme). All historians suggested that it was peculiar anyone who has practiced war for centuries would lose so much energy in a battle field doing such peculiar moves. However in none of the accounts of wars faught by the sikhs are there mentions by the observers about 'peculiar movements'. Surely if thats the way sikhs regularly faught, there would be some mention in the anglo-sikh war books or journals. I believe it is more of an exercise than an actual move of swordsmanship as potrayed in the programme.

A time comes when a weapon ceases to be a tool and becoms a symbol. Several examples of khanda have been given across different centuries in different parts of india when it became a symbol of freedom from oppression. Similarly the AK-47 actually making it to the flag of mozambique and hence the only firearm in history to become a national symbol. Once a tool becomes a symbol/an icon, it becomes fixed,immovable. To change it is to change ones core beliefs (here freedom both with the khanda and the klashinikov) which cant be done.

Another example is the anecdote where prince********** (to avoid argument and making this discussion a historical one) questioned his father why was a blades sharpness was tested on cotton and not flesh. After all, he argued, it was to be used for war. Accounts varied that he chopped his own finger to test it or someone elses or suggested it (see why i avoided the name). But the point is just this small deviation from the norm resulted him in being banished/admonished/disinherited (accounts vary-again name not given to avoid argument).

[Moin.]

Here's a very interstng link on Viking Swords wrt to the same subject..

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=1916

[Rajat]

Although we are wandering off a bit from the original point but this is getting interesting!

Please see the pic of khanda and sosun patta. see how there is a metal bar extension from the pommel. that extension is approx 6 inches long. this will never be found in a tulwar.

Yes, you are referring to the spike, I knew, but was not sure, that you were referring to this. Just wanted to confirm. But although I really do not know how they used to fight with a Khanda but logically it will make little difference if you grasp the spike with the second hand. Its thickness will not offer a good grip and do much in terms of control or cutting power. If this is what it was meant to be then it is another design flaw and adds to what I was saying earlier.

It is quite common, specially during the Navrataras to sacrifice Bakras not to mention other occasions and the most common tool (not to say weapon) to do this are the common Talwars. The decapitation is quick and easy with the slashing action. No problems,as you say. But as you say the fact remains that neither you or I have used this for extended periods (as a fighting weapon) and see the results this would have on our hands and how long can it be used in this manner.

I am not denying that the Talwars were used in battles. Wars have been won and lost, people have lived by the sword and it is a part of our history and culture but what I am saying is that it could have been made more efficient and sooner.

It is the warriors who win a war but training and weapons make a huge difference.

A time comes when a weapon ceases to be a tool and becoms a symbol............ Once a tool becomes a symbol/an icon, it becomes fixed,immovable. To change it is to change ones core beliefs (here freedom both with the khanda and the klashinikov) which cant be done.

I agree that more or less this might be the answer to it and not any other theory or practical reason.

[Moin.]

And I did see the episode of the Deadliest warrior on the Rajput Warrior and the person weilind teh khanda did use the two handed grip for a devastating strike on a bull carcass... Amazing to see what impact these deadly weapons really have on the flesh and bone !!!!

[winnie_the_pooh]

Shooter,

The gatka that you see is more for show.There is an attempt to provide a spectacle. Some practitioners however get right into it with great earnest.A nihang high on sukha is not going to jump around a lot.Some get down right nasty and murderous with their opponents once the blood gets flowing.

As far as the swinging of the sword with elaborate flourishes,it does help to build wrist strength and also stamina.Plus you get used to weight of the sword.After a couple of minutes the weight of the light talwar seems to increase with each passing moment. Believe you me,it is tougher than it looks and do it without impaling yourself is harder still

[rraju2805]

GREAT & AWESOME COLLECTION Moinji....

Thanks Much Raju, you make me feel old dude, calling me Moinji. I'm just 31. 30's is the new 20's mate and I'm enjoying it, down to the bone



Regards Moin.

hahahaha...
Why are you feel old...?

you are still young sir ,

[winnie_the_pooh]

I did see the episode with interest and have discussed it personally with a member here. Many years ago a group people (myself included)were approached by an american saying he wants to produce a program about warriors that features the fighting styles and weapons of rajputs and he wants our input. At that time, none of us knew much/could be bothered. In fact the only ancient battle tactic i knew then about rajput warriors was the 'gol'/gole esp associated with the south east rajasthan.
Anyways we didnt reply and forgot all about it till this episode came out. Apparently they found some sikhs and filled them in as it was an indian fighting style and they were 'singh'. Of course they got the timeline wrong as they wanted to potray warriors from the beginning of the last millinea and the khalsa panth is relatively 'new'.

It would have been interesting to see swordsmen from Rajasthan display their prowess in wielding traditional weapons.Re. the 'Khalsa Panth',it may be new,as you put it,but people from Punjab have been fighting from much much older times.Remember a fellow called Alexander who came to these parts

[shooter]

I did see the episode with interest and have discussed it personally with a member here. Many years ago a group people (myself included)were approached by an american saying he wants to produce a program about warriors that features the fighting styles and weapons of rajputs and he wants our input. At that time, none of us knew much/could be bothered. In fact the only ancient battle tactic i knew then about rajput warriors was the 'gol'/gole esp associated with the south east rajasthan.
Anyways we didnt reply and forgot all about it till this episode came out. Apparently they found some sikhs and filled them in as it was an indian fighting style and they were 'singh'. Of course they got the timeline wrong as they wanted to potray warriors from the beginning of the last millinea and the khalsa panth is relatively 'new'.

It would have been interesting to see swordsmen from Rajasthan display their prowess in wielding traditional weapons.Re. the 'Khalsa Panth',it may be new,as you put it,but people from Punjab have been fighting from much much older times.Remember a fellow called Alexander who came to these parts

Dear WPH i wasnt making any personal comments on any particular panth.
If you see the episode, the 'historical background' on the 'rajput warrior', they mentioned that these warriors were based in khyber pass to plains and again put the time line 900 AD. They also said that due to location of the first land after khyber, they became warriors. Hence i say they got the timeline wrong.
Forget alexander the battle of 10 kings was also faught in Punjab and so was the famous battle where Indra broke the dams and freed the rivers. However thats not the point. For e.g. in the programme they had an episode on romans and another on mafia. it wasnt 'Italian'. With time, the weapons, fighting styles, dynasties change.
Similarly there were separate episodes on sas and knights rather than 'englishmen'.

[winnie_the_pooh]

Shooter,

I think you have misunderstood.I found it ridiculous that they could not get some one who looked like what a warrior from the ancient/medieval times would have looked like rather than getting sikh/nihangs to play that role.But then a white man with his face darkened has often played the role of an Indian in Hollywood movies

[shooter]

Shooter,

I think you have misunderstood.I found it ridiculous that they could not get some one who looked like what a warrior from the ancient/medieval times would have looked like rather than getting sikh/nihangs to play that role.But then a white man with his face darkened has often played the role of an Indian in Hollywood movies

oops re: the misunderstanding.
+1 for the rest.

[Katana]

This is consequent to my post on page 4 of this thread.

The 'leheriya kindi', to use its correct nomenclature, is finally with me. The hilt and chape have been gilted on copper (with real gold 'warq') but the blade is not yet perfect. The damascus rosettes stand up well but the weld patterns between the 2 metals show up a bit. Comparing it to earlier articles made 200-400 years ago it is a good attempt although it could be improved further.

My sakligar refuses to divulge the final cost as yet. Probably, he's going to break it quietly to me so that I would be better prepared to absorb the shock!

leheriya 001 (Small).jpg

leheriya 003 (Small).jpg

leheriya 004 (Small).jpg

leheriya 006 (Small).jpg

leheriya 007 (Small).jpg

[Moin.]

This is consequent to my post on page 4 of this thread.

The 'leheriya kindi', to use its correct nomenclature, is finally with me. The hilt and chape have been gilted on copper (with real gold 'warq') but the blade is not yet perfect. The damascus rosettes stand up well but the weld patterns between the 2 metals show up a bit. Comparing it to earlier articles made 200-400 years ago it is a good attempt although it could be improved further.

My sakligar refuses to divulge the final cost as yet. Probably, he's going to break it quietly to me so that I would be better prepared to absorb the shock!

Katanaji, most of the pattern welding/lamination in earlier times right from the Viking Blacksmiths to the Japanese Katanas to the modern San Mai Steel by Cold Steel was/is done to combine the quality of low/high carbon contents or soft or hard steels. Does the Chevron pattern blade has any such functional value apart from the obvious aesthetic and presentation value (This being a darbar sword as you have specified). It would be very interesting to see the forging process for the Chevron pattern, not sure if you have photographed it.

Like all other pieces, photos of which you have shared here this one's too an exquisite work of art. Very difficult to beleive there are still people practising this art and patrons supporting the Karigars/Sakilgars.

Best Regards
Moin.

[Katana]

You are quite right about the combination of the two steels to produce these patterns. Even in earlier times this kind of a sword would not have stood up to the rigours of battle. This was a out and out durbar sword. To be carried for state occasions and such or maybe a bit of light usage.

This form of a 'kindi' or straight sword is peculiar to Mewar (Udaipur) and nowhere else. However, the chevron weld pattern is to be found in swords from Alwar, Amber (Jaipur) and Hadauti(Kota-Bundi).

As for photographing the entire process, I plan to spend some time with some workmen after Diwali on a process pretty much lost. I'll follow up then.