Buying Knives and other sharp n shiny objects in Rajasthan.

[bodhijobs]

Hi all,

A silly question. Do we need to have a license to keep swords (like the ones mentioned above, old and new)?

Regards
Bodhisattwa

[rraju2805]

GREAT & AWESOME COLLECTION Moinji....

I actually passed through the Jaipur station metal detector with all these... heheheheh....

railway's metal detectors are useless...

[Moin.]

I have had 'leheriya' and 'nav durga' blades made lately from Udaipur. Both are yet to be finished but I thought I would share this with everyone.

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This is a 'leheriya' straight sword which was primarily used for court purposes. The name 'leheriya' alludes to the pattering of the blade, 'leheriya' as in wavy. The chevron appreance is made from alternating segments of pattern welded watered steel which assumes a silvery colour and a steel without apparent pattern of a light grey colour.

Technically speaking, this form of sword is one of the most complex to manufacture. In fact, this process has been revived after almost 250 years and some karigars are attempting it, although it is not yet perfect. The weld points still show up a bit.

The other one is an etched 'nav durga' khanda. The nine forms of Goddess Durga are hand etched on either side. These are generally used for Dusshera puja. This is yet incomplete and still needs major etching work and watering of the blade. The hilt shall be gold kundan on solid steel in the basket form of pommel.

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Wow, is all I can say Katanaji. I've just read a wonderful book " By My Sowrd and Sheild" Traditional weapons of the Indian Warrior by Jaiwant Paul. I'm sure you've read it too. And I'm quoting from the same.

Kirk Narduban "iterally means forty setpes or rungs of the ladder. The steps are amlost equidistant from each other and run across the bredath of the blade. Egerton syas the idea is alos expressed in an inscription on one of the blades that the undulations of the steel resemble a net across running water. This is the most highly esteemed pattern of watering.

In the same book there's an image of a beautiful highly ornate Lehariya Talwar in Victoria and Albet Museum and the hilt's excatly similar to the ones you've selected with an elephant's head at the pommel.

Any images of the basket hilt you're using for the Khanda ?

I'm still waiting for the info promised on Damascus/ Faux Damascus/pattern welding.

Best Regards
Moin.

-- Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:00 pm --

GREAT & AWESOME COLLECTION Moinji....


Thanks Much Raju, you make me feel old dude, calling me Moinji. I'm just 31. 30's is the new 20's mate and I'm enjoying it, down to the bone



Regards Moin.

-- Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:01 pm --

GREAT & AWESOME COLLECTION Moinji....


Thanks Much Raju, you make me feel old dude, calling me Moinji. I'm just 31. 30's is the new 20's mate and I'm enjoying it, down to the bone



Regards Moin.

[goodboy_mentor]

Do we need to have a license to keep swords (like the ones mentioned above, old and new)?

If the sword is not sharpened and has blunt edges, then it can be argued that it is just a strip of metal. But if you want to keep sharpened sword/s and be on the safer side of law, then check if there is any Central Government notification in force in your area, issued under Section 4 of Arms Act 1959 . If such a notification is in force in your are then you need a license.

[Katana]

This is what could be done for the hilt or 'muth' for the khanda. This is an example of gold 'kundan' work on steel. My perception of the design is slightly different, but I'm illustrating it here with these photographs.

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[Moin.]

This is what could be done for the hilt or 'muth' for the khanda. This is an example of gold 'kundan' work on steel. My perception of the design is slightly different, but I'm illustrating it here with these photographs.

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The ornamentation on the hilt seems to be embossed/relief work. With the Gold prices going north by the day, this is sure to cost a bomb ! Katanaji, would be very interested to see the design of the traditional basket hilt you intened to have on the Khanda. Although must say with the exquiste engraving on the blade, the hilt deserves something matching and more delicate and equisite inlay work than what you've shown in the reference images !! Please keep us all posted on the progress of this project.

Regards
Moin.

-- Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:15 am --

And one general question to Katanaji, Rajat, is what is the ideal balance point in and Indian Talwar or the Khanda. For a general purpose knife the ideal balance point should be I think where the index finger grips the handle or at most at the ricasso. For a Khukri or a traditional Bowie it would be forward more at the tip for some chopping power on the blade.

When you say an Indian Sword is well balanced and feels right in the hand what does it imply ? Where's the ideal point of balance of the Indian Talwar ?


Thanks in advance.

Regards
Moin.

And a very Happy Independence day to all the members. Jai Hind !

[Katana]

Moin,

Do follow up with Leo Figiel's 'On Damascus Steel'. This gentleman went on a treasure hunt in north west India in the '70's and '80's and bought up most of the good pieces directly from families who had had them for generations. This book is a compendium of some articles in his collection. It is a rather contemporary photo essay than a sermonsing treatise on swords. Also it makes a superb reference guide.

Jaiwant Paul also co-authored a book called 'Indian Arms and Armour'. I have been trying to chase this but have yet to lay my hands on it. Would appreciate if you could give me a copy of the one that you have.

About a well balanced sword, the general rule of thumb in Gujarat and Rajasthan is as follows: take the sword and place the spine with the edge pointing up on your two index fingers somewhere along the center. Now try to move both the fingers towards the opposite sides, one towards the distal the other towards the hilt. If the sword remains upright it's balanced, if it falls to either side it's not.

About the 'leheriya' and 'nav durga', here is a photograph of the original articles. In this, the two curvi-linear swords are from Sirohi, the khanda from Mewar. Note the hilts, one of them in the 'Ganga-Jumna' style with both silver and gold ornamentation.

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I agree with the fact that pricing and the cost of these articles are on the up side, but once in your possession they tend to grow on you. I look at them also as works of art and it is this fact that endears them to me.

BTW, I spoke to the sakligar yesterday to put the elephant head hilt and cover it with gold 'warq'. I don't know as yet how much it's going set me back by but I'll take your suggestion for that. The 'myaan' will be covered with blood red velvet that I selected last week when I visited him.

[Moin.]

Moin,

Do follow up with Leo Figiel's 'On Damascus Steel'. This gentleman went on a treasure hunt in north west India in the '70's and '80's and bought up most of the good pieces directly from families who had had them for generations. This book is a compendium of some articles in his collection. It is a rather contemporary photo essay than a sermonsing treatise on swords. Also it makes a superb reference guide.

katanji, these books are so hard to find !!. Thanks a ton.. I'll try and source this

Jaiwant Paul also co-authored a book called 'Indian Arms and Armour'. I have been trying to chase this but have yet to lay my hands on it. Would appreciate if you could give me a copy of the one that you have.

About a well balanced sword, the general rule of thumb in Gujarat and Rajasthan is as follows: take the sword and place the spine with the edge pointing up on your two index fingers somewhere along the center. Now try to move both the fingers towards the opposite sides, one towards the distal the other towards the hilt. If the sword remains upright it's balanced, if it falls to either side it's not.

About the 'leheriya' and 'nav durga', here is a photograph of the original articles. In this, the two curvi-linear swords are from Sirohi, the khanda from Mewar. Note the hilts, one of them in the 'Ganga-Jumna' style with both silver and gold ornamentation.

Do follow up with Leo Figiel's 'On Damascus Steel'.

katanji, these books are so hard to find !!. Thanks a ton.. I'll try and source this

I agree with the fact that pricing and the cost of these articles are on the up side, but once in your possession they tend to grow on you. I look at them also as works of art and it is this fact that endears them to me.

Katanji, totally agree, you only get to live once

BTW, I spoke to the sakligar yesterday to put the elephant head hilt and cover it with gold 'warq'. I don't know as yet how much it's going set me back by but I'll take your suggestion for that. The 'myaan' will be covered with blood red velvet that I selected last week when I visited him.

Wow, I'm sure this project will turn out to be exqusite piece....

Jaiwant Paul also co-authored a book called 'Indian Arms and Armour'. I have been trying to chase this but have yet to lay my hands on it. Would appreciate if you could give me a copy of the one that you have.

Katanji this is a really wonderful book, such indepth research on the Indian Sword, right from the Indus Valley Civilisation to the present day.....Absolutely fascinating read as to how the modern incarnation of the Indian Sword has evolved over time with influences right from the Greek Swords to the Persian Shamsheer. I'll find another copy for you, if not available I'll send you a good quality xerox..

Another book which is very good reference on the subject is



In fact Jaiwant Paul has made several reference is Indian Arms and Armour from this book. This is availble at my local Landmark Store.. I'll pick this one up in a day or two..


P.S: Is it normal for the Khanda to have the Talwar type of hilt, instead of the traditional Hindu Box Type of Hilt with the Cloth padding and the spiked Pommel ? Also the extension of the cross guard which reinforces the spine is missing and that run two-thirds of the length of one edge and a short way up the other is not there. Also maybe it's just photogrpahic distortion but the Khanda to me seems slightly curved ratehr than being straight. The tip is like a traditional Tawlar too. Is this a variation of the Khanda from Mewar ?
__________________

About a well balanced sword, the general rule of thumb in Gujarat and Rajasthan is as follows: take the sword and place the spine with the edge pointing up on your two index fingers somewhere along the center. Now try to move both the fingers towards the opposite sides, one towards the distal the other towards the hilt. If the sword remains upright it's balanced, if it falls to either side it's not.

Thanks so much, this is very useful infrmation. I'll test it out today !!!!!

About the 'leheriya' and 'nav durga', here is a photograph of the original articles. In this, the two curvi-linear swords are from Sirohi, the khanda from Mewar. Note the hilts, one of them in the 'Ganga-Jumna' style with both silver and gold ornamentation...

The Hilts are absolutely gorgeous, can't wait to see the finished results.....


Best Regards
Moin.

[Katana]

About the khanda in the photograph: your eyes are not playing tricks on you! It is curved inwards. This form of blade was used to offer 'bali' on Dushhera in the old days. It's meant for hacking, plain and simple. The hilt is the normal 'katori' type, in fact there is no gold or silver on this one at all, just etching.

There is no fixed form of hilt that could be affixed to a khanda, and variations can be found in myriad ways. The actual ones used for battle or 'bali' had nothing to show while the ones used for puja could be ornamented. This one is somewhere in between. I suppose this example is about 450 years old and is used for puja only now.

[Rajat]

When you say an Indian Sword is well balanced and feels right in the hand what does it imply ? Where's the ideal point of balance of the Indian Talwar ?

About a well balanced sword, the general rule of thumb in Gujarat and Rajasthan is as follows: take the sword and place the spine with the edge pointing up on your two index fingers somewhere along the center. Now try to move both the fingers towards the opposite sides, one towards the distal the other towards the hilt. If the sword remains upright it's balanced, if it falls to either side it's not.

Actually I had read your query yesterday but did not answer this question because I have a very mixed opinion about the North Indian swords apart from some of the Persian / Mughal and European styles which were adopted later on.

As Katanaji has rightly said the general rule of the thumb when they speak about a balanced sword in these areas is to check the balance in the manner as described or in general make it stand on your fingers from the spine and it should not tilt towards one side. It should stay "standing" with the sharp edge upwards. This is true for must old swords that I have handled. Usually they are all quite well balanced in the manner described above.

However, not all of these "well balanced” swords feel “right” in the hand or have a well balanced feel or a point of weight / balance that feels right when you are holding these. If fact very few of these swords have a well balanced feel when you are holding them. Some of these feel like you are holding a stick or a club and not a sword.
I personally like the ones in which the ideal balance (by weight) is towards the upper middle of the curve and not too low towards the hilt. These just feel right to me. However this is just a personal opinion and others may have different comfort levels.

The other thing which I have not been able to understand is the classic (katori type) hilt. First of all the gripping section on most of these is too small and it feels too tight when you grip the hilt, although I have a few that are the right size. I cannot believe that everyone in those times had small hands and it is not that I have very large hands. The grip is overall very uncomfortable and “tactically” not right for periods of extended use. Secondly, have you guys every noticed how the “Katori” or Disc on the base of the hilt digs into the base of your hand below the small finger. I simply cannot understand what went into the engineering process that this was developed.

Look at all the other styles of swords all over: The Japanese, the Persian, the European: the Medieval Scottish Claymore, the Rapiers,The Templar, the short Roman swords, the Viking swords etc etc. all of these that I know and have held have good solid comfortable grips which allow you to hold these and use / fight with them comfortably for extended periods and put power into the sword.

I really am not a great fan of this style of the hilt. It really restricts the movement when you are handling these swords and not to mention if you would be dueling. Although the fact is that they did and did it quite well !!

These are just general observations and views.

[Moin.]

Rajat, Katanaji may be able to elaborate more on your query, I'll quote verbatim from Jaiwant Paul's ' By my Sword and Sheild' ( Jaiwant Paul has authored two books on Indian Arms and Armour ).

PG 76

" Hilts: The hilts of the Indian Swords and daggers are generally made of metal. In some hilts how ever the grip, which is the portion held by the hand, can be of ivory, jade or wood.

If you hold a sword in your hand, the hilt sometimes feels small for the hand and this has often been commented upon. This, in my view, is due to two reasons. The first is the explanation given to me by many swordsmiths who say that a small hilt which is a tight fit for the hand gives rise to a sense of 'Josh', a term difficult to render in English but which may be translated as a combination of aggression, fervour and recklessness. This may sound a bit odd at first but when you take a tight grip on the hilt and hold the weapon aloft then you may perhaps understand what the swordsmith mean. The second reason is that men today are bigger than they were a few centuries ago. This is apparent when you see suits of armour in Europe or India. The average armour displayed in several European museums I have visited, would not fit the modern man."

I found that this on the old Talwar I picked up in Jaipur as well, the box hilt feels quite small for my hand, and I've got average sized hands !


One question or rather an observation after seeing a handling a few swords in Jaipur and looking at a lot of pictures on the internet. The disc pommel on several of the hilts is not exactly parallel to the quillon or the cross guard and the muth or the handle not exactly perpendicular to it. The handle feels like an extension of the curve of the blade and the disc pommel then perpendicular to the handle. Any idea why that is, did you or Katanji notice this. This is true in my Talwar as well, I like a fool first thought that the hilt must be bent or damaged !!!

Regards
Moin.

[Rajat]

If you hold a sword in your hand, the hilt sometimes feels small for the hand and this has often been commented upon. This, in my view, is due to two reasons. The first is the explanation given to me by many swordsmiths who say that a small hilt which is a tight fit for the hand gives rise to a sense of 'Josh', a term difficult to render in English but which may be translated as a combination of aggression, fervour and recklessness. This may sound a bit odd at first but when you take a tight grip on the hilt and hold the weapon aloft then you may perhaps understand what the swordsmith mean. The second reason is that men today are bigger than they were a few centuries ago. This is apparent when you see suits of armour in Europe or India. The average armour displayed in several European museums I have visited, would not fit the modern man."

I found that this on the old Talwar I picked up in Jaipur as well, the box hilt feels quite small for my hand, and I've got average sized hands !

The theory sounds good but does not offer any true explanation or offer any logic. With all due respect to the author and the sword smiths this is an assumption at its best. And "Josh" may help in winning a war but it is not everything that goes into it. Why do we speak of Ergonomics and pay attention to Functional designs, Efficiency, User friendliness? Why has so much research gone into this that it has become a science? What about the human factor and comfort levels? Do we replace all this with just “Josh”??

When we talk about all the Knife makers now we speak about and discuss how their knives fit into the palm and fill up all the curves and offer a perfect grip. When we speak about the Japanese Katana the first thing that we appreciate is the grip. Why not so with the Indian Talwar? Of course there is a difference in design and we cannot compare the two but there are other examples too.

Ok, the average human had a smaller frame a few centuries ago but still they were not midgets and as you say you have only average sized hands but my guess is that you will find most of the hilts small for your hands too. Of course there are swords with larger hilts but these are comparatively very few in number.

I have not found a convincing reason for this.

One question or rather an observation after seeing a handling a few swords in Jaipur and looking at a lot of pictures on the internet. The disc pommel on several of the hilts is not exactly parallel to the quillon or the cross guard and the muth or the handle not exactly perpendicular to it. The handle feels like an extension of the curve of the blade and the disc pommel then perpendicular to the handle. Any idea why that is, did you or Katanji notice this.

Your observation is correct, I have seen such curved handles and these are found mostly on the Mughal or the Persian swords which have a larger curve like a half moon. There might be exceptions too. I guess that it would offer more control and a better grip while slashing. There might be other reasons too.

[shooter]

First of all the gripping section on most of these is too small and it feels too tight when you grip the hilt, although I have a few that are the right size.

The people in old days were quite small. Forget a few centuries earlier. Even the previous generation has been quite short. The 'giant' vikings of midevial times have been found to be 5'10" tall.

Average indians a few centuries ago were actually almost midgets. If you see armours of yesteryears, the swords seem to be in proportion to the size. If you try a helmet from a 300 years ago, it wont fit you.

Ergonomics: the classic sword with katori or basket hilt had an extended tang which afforded a double handed grip.

Swordsmanship was practiced from early teenage, if youre used to gripping a particular item from teenage onwards, one gets used to the comfort levels.

An average infantry soldier was from poorer background. In most of developing world, the lower social classes are of smaller frames anyways. Even today the people who do a lot of physical labour and are poor for example the unskilled labour on construction sites have small hands.

The josh concept is lost in time and might never be varified as the traditional swordfighting skills have been lost in time.
I have made a post of meeting the great grandson of a rishi whose ashram used to be the shastra vidya acharya of royal family and responsible for teaching dhanurved and sword fighting etc. I have made a post long ago. The family books have been lost and most of the other acharyas gave this up with advent of guns when sword play was not deemed necessary.

After the arrival of shamsheer and the evolution of indo-persian sword, the tulwar became like a shark. So perfect that there was no need to evolve. Hence the kaarigars just didnt put much r&D into it (I suppose).

The khanda and sosun patta remained more of a psychological means of resistance.

Whereas tulwar represented islam the khanda was used by anyone resisting the mughal empire be it Rana Pratap, shivaji or the sikhs. Even in Rajasthan khanda only survives in mewar, the region that opposed the mughals till the end.

When the weapons become icons and symbols, they become divine and one cant mentally even think of altering or improving them.

[Rajat]

Shooter, thanks for the detailed reply. For most parts I agree with your explanation and theory but the fact still remains.

Agreed, there are theories and research which show that people a couple of generation ago were not as tall as people today but they certainly were not midgets. I could not find much data on how Indians have evolved and what was the height earlier but it is agreed generally that people were on an average shorter by a few inches.

Now height does not necessary co-relate with the size of ones hands. Yes, generally a taller person will have larger hands and feet then his shorter counterpart. This statement is not really based on any research or data but just general day to day observation on how people as tall as me sometimes have larger or smaller hands or feet for that matter.

As far as the height is concerned the first impact it would have will be on the length of the sword and not the grip. I hope you get the point: The way it was generally worn or carried. A midget would definitely not carry a long sword but in most cases I have noticed that even the long swords had a quite tight grip. What does it imply? I do not really know and this is what my question was.

Secondly, how is it that most or the other sword styles or the same era have hilts or grips which are much more comfortable to hold and fit our hands today?

Ergonomics: the classic sword with katori or basket hilt had an extended tang which afforded a double handed grip

Sorry I missed the point. Please explain how it afforded a double handed grip? One hand over (covering) the other or under the other?

Ok, the lower social classes have smaller hands but I have seen a few richly and heavily ornamented swords and hilts and these obviously did not belong to a common soldier but the general observation was the same.

Agreed that swordsmanship was practiced from the early teens and the swordsman must have come to terms with what was provided and what they were handling but this was the question that why did it evolve so slowly and why was the hilt was not made more ergonomic.

This is the reason why I was comparing it to the other blade styles of the world. Even as you have observed that the khanda was more a means of psychological deterrence, why was it so and why was it not designed to be more usable. Look at the old nordic double handed swords similar to our straight Khanda's and it is obvious that these could be wielded with comparatively more ease and more power could be put behind each blow.

There must have been reasons behind the construction, we may be sure of this, but to find the right theory as to why this was is the point.

[shooter]

Sorry I missed the point. Please explain how it afforded a double handed grip? One hand over (covering) the other or under the other?

for the pics of extended tang and how it can afford a double handed grip, please seem pics i have put up in the "visual treat for sword lovers" i started in approx 2008. See the traditional khanda design and sosun patta design.

Also as to the non-evolution of grip, please also see my theory (based on studies of psychological aspects of veneration of weapons across cultures) of the icon and hence not to be interfered with.
i gotta go. finally find a stimulating thread and hope to exchange more ideas.

BTW i own both the books mentioned above. Dont despair if you dont have "indian arms and armour" its more or less a coffee table book version of by my sword and shield.
I first read the latter when it was a black and white paperback not the glossy Roli book edition.
Met the author twice. He does have good knowledge of weapons and his collections of blades would actually put ANY private collection in india to shame (sorry olly but its true).
His collection was actually featured in a magazine which published it before its time and now demised.

rest in next ciao.