Buying Knives and other sharp n shiny objects in Rajasthan.

[Moin.]

'The Great Indian Knife and Tool Show' on TLC at 9:30 pm. Watch all your favorite knife maniacs like Moin travel to far flung destinations to look for awesome cutlery, Slingshot the eternal adventurer who field tests his blades in extreme conditions and Bruno22 the knife trader always looking at making a fast buck selling one of his 'sharp' objects. Ask all your knife questions to our in-house experts Rajat and Subal. Choombak reviews a new Spyderco every week.
Or you could buy the boxed set 'season one' at your favorite DVD store.

Hahahah
. The dirty "Half Dozen".......

[Moin.]

Moin,

I understand your quest for quality and historical edged weapons has taken you on a wild goose chase through Rajasthan. It was indeed heartening to read your travelogue; however, I should point to the fact that you have made two mistakes in your quest. Firstly, understand the subject thoroughly before setting out and finally interview or interact with people who have actual first hand knowledge of these articles.

Why I say this is simple. The world is one big bad place, with people out to fleece tourists (in this case you being one). Rajasthan, and to some extent Gujarat, is like a coin, with two sides to it. One, the tourism facilitating one and the other, the old cultured place it has always been. The problem is the second side. To penetrate it is next to impossible, and therein lie the treasures.

Now, all the people that you visited, like the show rooms etc. are just a 'business' for the tourism trade. In my 15 year quest for historical edged weapons I have yet to come across a craftsman with a shop. Most of the craftsmen are situated in surrounding villages around Udaipur, Jodhpur and importantly Sirohi in the Rajasthan, with some in Jamnagar, Kheralu and Rajkot in Gujarat. They in turn sell their wares to these business men, but the crux of the matter is that these people have wares made to serve the tourism trade. The idea is to find craftsmen who still service the old Rajput families. That is where the real craftsmanship lies. They can't fool those families because these swords are still used in family functions whether they be weddings or 'tikas' or pujas and to do 'loh' or 'bali'.

Moreover, most of the actual historical swords and armour is with private families and not in museums. I know of quite a few replicas that adorn museums, both private and government, where people go 'ahh' and 'ohh' and don't have the vaguest idea what the origianl looks like or where it is. Some reasons for this are the quirks of history and another is to save them from prying eyes.

Not surprisingly, craftsmen have been having a tough time making two ends meet since the past couple of decades and it is only lately that they have been receiving commissions from the old families once again. Although some techniqes have been lost, a few have been revived, like the double weld damascus (I shall post pictures of my commission soon). Meanwhile, I have had innumerable articles made, some even for members here. I am attaching photographs, please do look at them. My own collection now amounts to about 30 new swords, all faithful reproductions of historical pieces.

This pair was specially made for member Safarigent and his brother. Both are identical except for the engraving with their names. The blades are 'sakela' with large rosettes with silver bidri work on the hilt, chape and locket and carry over the same floral designs. Both swords are tempered and wonderfully balanced.

My next commission is a replica of a sword made for Biram Shah, Akbar's premier general, by Kulb Ali of the Agra arsenal.

Katana; absolutely agree with you. I only started with the intent of purchasing a few of these pattern welded/faux Damascus blades being sold at one point in the IFG forum. I just stumbled upon these antique dealers and arm stores who have sourced and hoarded up these edged weapons from all over Rajasthan for sale to tourist and gullible people like myself. I had or have no knowledge of historical edged weapons, it’s just like I said a love for all things “sharp and shiny” .

I’ve seen several of your exquisite replicas that you’ve put on sale in the IFG for Sale Forum from time to time and I’m sure you have a great collection and also a very good database on the subject of Historical Edged Weapons. I may be have been duped or fleeced but I’m always willing to learn from the mistakes made and of course more on the subject (This trip was an awesome experience none the less) .We all start some where don’t we.

On my last day I visited a local arms store/gun dealer who had again hoarded up close to a hundred old swords with and without ornamentation and had them for sale. (Unfortunately, like a fool I did not carry a camera, nor I’m able to extract the photographs from my company phone.)

I did purchase two old swords; I will photograph them and post them here for you to provide some information on them and what value should have been paid for these. These were soaked in grease. I reached Mumbai on Sunday; I have yet to clean them which I plan to do over the week end. And of course if you can provide some links for further study or suggest some reading material, that will be very helpful.

Best Regards
Moin.

[shooter]

I agree with Katanaji.

A Lot of showrooms in jaipur sell fakes esp to tourists.

There are 2 kinds of fakes, tourist junk ones and tourist fooling ones, the kind that come with 'certificate of authenticity' from archeological dept.

This is a big nexus.

The new ones are made to look old and given cert. of authenticity and the genuine old ones are given a certificate of ' new/replica' so that they may be exported without hassle to a private collecters house.

However there are a few old pieces around but its unlikely to find hundreds of old ones in one place.

I have spent a few days in the cities mentioned and do know a bit about what you are writing. Didnt want to ruin your enthuiasm. There is a lot of old swords they are so old they are brown with rust; just brown pieces of metal out of 86, 3-4 are in good condition; the guy is asking for 1 crore. Thats how much they want for 'old antiques' pieces of sheet (sic).
Also a rule of thumb, if its without an edge its most probably not an antique. Its manufactures to aid ease of travel and avoid legal hassle and the tourists are told 'lost its edge because of use in battles'

Swords havent been used in battles since 200 years. (ok just a general idea not a historical debate). Last hand held steel weapon to be used was lance in WW1.

2 types of swords. Ornamental for functions like marriage, tika, durbar festivals. These are the ones with work whether koftagiri (the 'in thing these days; funny how people 200 years ago knew koftagiri would be popular in 21 century so lets keep these ones well maintained and dealers 50 yrs ago didnt export them) or meena or kundan or plated or carved.

The battle swords were so plain that even if you were to see one, you wouldnt believe it belonged to royalty or high nobility.

So a beautifully worked sword wont bear 'battle marks'.

And while we are at it, Maharana pratap didnt have a double scabbard for two tulwars. He used a lance and no it wasnt 100 kg heavy as told in city palace museum.

Damascus work wasnt common (60% of 'antiques' today). It was expensive even then. Go to any old collection and see for yourself how many had 'jauhar' (damascus) and do the math. Again funny how folks 300 yrs ago knew this would be in fashion so kept them safe and discarded the rest.

Having said all this, it is still a great experience to see the revival of old workmanship and to see so many swords in 1 place.

I am not saying your swords are fake etc but just warning all the folks here that jaipur isnt a haven or mecca for edged weapons.

Its the biggest tourism city in raj and one of the biggest in india and these dealers have learned to stay a step ahead of tourists whereas Pushkar etc are new centres so still 'learning'.

[Katana]

Moin, in my mother tongue Gujarati, there is a saying : thokar vagar thakar na bane. Roughly translated it means that one can't be a thakur without tripping or simply put, you can't be successful before failing first. What I'm trying to imply here is that your effort in pursuing your quest is truly commendable. Not unless are you fooled, will you learn to sift the chaff from the diamonds. Keep at it and you will learn the subject, but a thorough understanding of history, stratagems and battle tactics in that particular era is paramount.

Shooter, I agree with each one of your sentences. I have actual battle swords with absolutely no ornamentation on them, let alone jauhar or sakela. Of course, the Durbar swords of the past 200 years do have a certain elan to them.

As concerns arms, armour and 'lavajma' of Maharana Pratap, very few know that it lies with a rather decent, down to earth family to this day and not in the hands of the Udaipur family or museum. This is just a quirk of history (if you know the history of the battle of Haldighatti and the relationship between Pratap and his younger brother, you would know what I'm implying).

[shooter]

Katanaji one day i hope to come and meet you and learn about sharps.

[Katana]

Always welcome, shooter. This is a rather off beat and interesting subject, and an addictive one too!

[art_collector]

I just stumbled upon these antique dealers and arm stores who have sourced and hoarded up these edged weapons from all over Rajasthan for sale to tourist and gullible people like myself.........


Well thats what business is all about...specially the one which caters to tourists.You do not have repeat customers and there are less chances of some one compaining about the quality .

[Moin.]

A very modest collection... Please enjoy...





The first purchase in ajmer, a teeny tiny Khukri, probably chinese.... For INR 200...a few hours on the Lansky, it's razor sharp....



With Big Daddy....



-- Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:44 pm --

These were purchased at INR 2000 each.. 2 are for friends... Koftagiri inlay work with Faux damascus blades.... very blunt, edge almost 2-3mm thick.....





Here's a close up of the blade....



The Handle with the camel pommel



another close up of the blade



-- Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:50 pm --

Love at first sight .....purchased for INR 4,500



Beautiful pattern on the blade







The layers in the steel are actually visible at the ricosso...







-- Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:54 pm --

The large decorative sword with inlay work....INR 9,000 from Kuber Handicrafts.. Saw the same piece at Jaipur handicraft for INR 42,000........







-- Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:57 pm --

The sword stick's for the boss... Already been reimbursed...... INR 6,000





-- Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:01 pm --

Will appreciate some info on these two swords... Katana ? What price should have been paid for these.....









-- Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:05 pm --

This one's really light, and the blade very very flexible..bahut lachak hai as they say.....











-- Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:10 pm --

A jambiya brought back by a friend from Oman....



-- Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:17 pm --

A few other knives brought recently.... Finally had the expendable income after turning 30 to start buying these... Fades in comparison to the benchmade, spydercos, Extrema ratios and the ZT's owned by some veteran members, but WTF .. just started (A Byrd Cara and a CRKT M16 picked up by my boss, he liked them very much)..

This one's a Nieto Campera Folder..



The love of my life, my EDC, the Victorinox"Bundeshwehr".. Sleep with this baby below my pillow.. Has seen some good hard use over the last two years...



This sweetheart's built like a tank... Like Chyna from WWF.. One tough little Bi#$ch...Fit's my hand liek a glove and super fast deployment (courtesy the Carsons Flipper).. The CRKT Hammond Cruiser....







-- Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:20 pm --

Totally Tacticaaaalllll.. The Boker Direkt..... Nasty Nasty....





-- Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:22 pm --

Top Class EDC knife..... The Sypderco Tenacious....





-- Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:24 pm --

Tiny little Gerber 2.5





-- Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:26 pm --



-- Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:29 pm --

The Rampuri... My grandfather brought this for me when I was in school....



-- Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:31 pm --

A Balisong......

[Subal das]

that one seems to be a talwar




modern days talwar made by Cold steel

[Moin.]

Hindi Cheeni Bhai Bhai....



This large folder's got a six inch blade, brought this for INR 150 from Musafirkhana in Crawford Market, last Saturday....



Some Chinese Throwing Darts, INR 35 Each for a set of 4 .....



This multitool's again Chinese but really well built for the price I paid for it.. INR 350....



-- Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:38 pm --

The Lansky and the Smiths... Keeps all my babies Shaving Sharp....



-- Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:40 pm --

Visiting cards as promised....



-- Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:44 pm --

Moin, in my mother tongue Gujarati, there is a saying : thokar vagar thakar na bane. Roughly translated it means that one can't be a thakur without tripping or simply put, you can't be successful before failing first. What I'm trying to imply here is that your effort in pursuing your quest is truly commendable. Not unless are you fooled, will you learn to sift the chaff from the diamonds. Keep at it and you will learn the subject, but a thorough understanding of history, stratagems and battle tactics in that particular era is paramount.

Shooter, I agree with each one of your sentences. I have actual battle swords with absolutely no ornamentation on them, let alone jauhar or sakela. Of course, the Durbar swords of the past 200 years do have a certain elan to them.

As concerns arms, armour and 'lavajma' of Maharana Pratap, very few know that it lies with a rather decent, down to earth family to this day and not in the hands of the Udaipur family or museum. This is just a quirk of history (if you know the history of the battle of Haldighatti and the relationship between Pratap and his younger brother, you would know what I'm implying).

Noted Katana, great piece of advice..... Will do and looking for some guidance when ever required...

Regards-Moin.

[shooter]

arjun will be thrilled to know his card is being viewed on the internet.

[Bruno22]

Awesome collection there Moin. And thank God you took the train.

[ABHI.BASU]

hi moin its really a good o say excellent collection u hav there........
hope ur mom keeps on yelling at u for d same, as its d same for me hear......
hi moin dosth where did u get those throwing knives yar been searching for it for d last 2.5 years need them badly plz do imform me yar.....
it wil be very kindfull of ur yar.....

[Moin.]

arjun will be thrilled to know his card is being viewed on the internet.

Shooter, the people in Jaipur are so warm and Friendly, like in Amchi Mumbai.... I;m sure he would be......

[hunterjack]

a very sweet collection you have got.. love everything..
but i'm a bit more interested in Chinese Throwing Darts and balisong, can please tell me where did you get those? particularly Chinese Throwing Darts.
thanks for sharing the images and wish that your collection and love for “sharp and shiny” keeps growing