Breaking news - Airguns now need license!

[goodboy_mentor]

goodboy mentor also mentioed that the appeal can also be made in the same court.

It appears what I wanted to convey has not been understood properly. I never said that appeal should be made in same court. On the contrary I said we need to attack the bigger issue that is leading to these kind of judgments. Then what is the bigger issue I am pointing to? The bigger issue is that nobody has has approached the Supreme Court properly to fight that RKBA is a fundamental right under Articles 19 and 21. Once Supreme Court utters that RKBA is a fundamental right under Constitution, all things are bound to move in right direction, all these silly judgments will loose value, else not. For this it is not necessary to appeal only in this case, rather than filling a new writ under Article 32(writ under Article 32 can also be filed), one can join as a party to any PIL related to arms act that is there in Supreme Court. One of such PIL is Writ Petition (Civil), no. 462 of 2007. This is the writ petition that media had sensationalized about Army Officers selling their weapons and MHA took this case as an opportunity to issue that nefarious arms policy. For details please refer my previous comments in this thread at http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... 67#p138019 and http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... 15#p138058

[ipsk]

It would have been better if you highlighted the relevant lines in the judgement. It is very difficult for a person like me to understand such a heavy judicial language. btw, what happens to the air guns or pistols already owned by various persons?

[goodboy_mentor]

It is very difficult for a person like me to understand such a heavy judicial language.

In layman's language Supreme Court needs to be aproached with a water tight case so that it utters that Right to Keep and Bear Arms is our fundamental right under Articles 19 and 21. How do we convince Supreme Court? Here are some ideas and explanations that RKBA is guaranteed under Article 19 and 21 http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... 15#p117785

btw, what happens to the air guns or pistols already owned by various persons?

Nothing to be panicked about. Please read the reply of bandukbhandar at http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... 75#p138401

[fantumfan2003]

goodboy_mentor

I am sorry for causing the misunderstanding.

M.

goodboy mentor also mentioed that the appeal can also be made in the same court.

It appears what I wanted to convey has not been understood properly. I never said that appeal should be made in same court. On the contrary I said we need to attack the bigger issue that is leading to these kind of judgments. Then what is the bigger issue I am pointing to? The bigger issue is that nobody has has approached the Supreme Court properly to fight that RKBA is a fundamental right under Articles 19 and 21. Once Supreme Court utters that RKBA is a fundamental right under Constitution, all things are bound to move in right direction, all these silly judgments will loose value, else not. For this it is not necessary to appeal only in this case, rather than filling a new writ under Article 32(writ under Article 32 can also be filed), one can join as a party to any PIL related to arms act that is there in Supreme Court. One of such PIL is Writ Petition (Civil), no. 462 of 2007. This is the writ petition that media had sensationalized about Army Officers selling their weapons and MHA took this case as an opportunity to issue that nefarious arms policy. For details please refer my previous comments in this thread at http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... 67#p138019 and http://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php ... 15#p138058

-- Wed Jun 08, 2011 15:30 --

goodboy_mentor

Page 11 in the doc below.....

http://lobis.nic.in/dhc/SRB/judgement/2 ... 912000.pdf

"No fundamental right to carry or trade in arms."

Can you please shed more light on the same ?

Thanks

M.

Then what is the bigger issue I am pointing to? The bigger issue is that nobody has has approached the Supreme Court properly to fight that RKBA is a fundamental right under Articles 19 and 21. Once Supreme Court utters that RKBA is a fundamental right under Constitution, all things are bound to move in right direction, all these silly judgments will loose value, else not.

[hornet]

in south korea firearms are banned maybe in indonesia too but airguns upto.50 bores are allowed.in canada everything is allowed axcept aoutomatic fires that is only a guess;but the weapon safety rules are to be followed no ban on imports but authorities permission is to had.usa is now clear on airguns except califirnia where they have to be paited in colors. indian crimrate is lesser to those coutries where firearms are licesed how many indians with licenses commit robberies idont know the data an occasional crime cannot set a precedent niether it can be prevented.more incidents in the armed forces occur due to duty tensions than ordihary homes.if acrime has to be commited it will be commited license or nolicenses. the point is the tendency to committ it with the population growing and pure water depleeting i think the crime to drink pure water will increase,is it not a more serious crime to pollute the rivers ihave yet to come across a punishment as someone bieng jailed for doig that. more animals are subjected to torture than bieng illegaly killed.human biengs have started dying of polluted water causing cancer still the highest court and the govt,cant do anything about it;only talk talk and talk is the agenda.with due respect to the authorities why in gods name the sword is always falling on the possession of arms.who ever wants to arm himself can do it illegaly and as much as one wants only the serious will is required but then the revolutionaries have to do it.making handguns and bomb like things are not rocket science these days.then in the course of action highest court needs is aproper representation.

[goodboy_mentor]

"No fundamental right to carry or trade in arms."Can you please shed more light on the same ?

Has the court elaborated how and on what basis it has reached this conclusion? Unless this matter is contested in Supreme Court with watertight arguments and facts, this wrong opinion will continued to be followed endlessly by every judge and court. In order to understand that RKBA is acknowledged by Articles 19 and 21 please read the following http://www.lawyersclubindia.com/forum/R ... -36011.asp

[fantumfan2003]

Kezar,

Can you please share a link to the verdict or share the doc itself here ?
Thanks

M.

The MP High Court has only last year given a verdict that, airguns are toys (since used in melas and fairs), is a sports item since being used in target shooting competitions (sold at gun shops, toy shops and sports goods shops).

Cheers

Kezar Husen Bandukwala

-- Thu Jun 09, 2011 14:33 --

Well it does not appear so.

Two things are a scary here...

a) Only one golden chance at the SC to put across a convincing argument so failure is not an option
b) How come all Judges are confused about the fundamental right.

It appears the lawyers pursuassive powers got the better of the learned judges ability to judge the situation on the ground........But then I may be wrong in assuming so.....

M.

"No fundamental right to carry or trade in arms."Can you please shed more light on the same ?

Has the court elaborated how and on what basis it has reached this conclusion? Unless this matter is contested in Supreme Court with watertight arguments and facts, this wrong opinion will continued to be followed endlessly by every judge and court. In order to understand that RKBA is acknowledged by Articles 19 and 21 please read the following http://www.lawyersclubindia.com/forum/R ... -36011.asp

[CKAY]

Fellow Airgunners,

THIS IS A BRIEF SYNOPSIS ABOUT THE WHOLE CASE FOR EASY UNDERSTANDING .
Maneka Gandhi filed a Public interest writ petition alleging that the prevention of cruelty to animals act was being routinely violated by persons shooting down birds and small animals with airguns and airpistols which are openly available in the market without any regulation and without any licensing.

Furthermore, Maneka Gandhi challanged the central government notification dated. 13/07/1962 whereby, the airguns and airpistols have been kept outside the purview of the Arms Act whereby, no licensing is required for owning and operating an air rifle or, air pistol, and the Delhi High Court has suspended the said notification exempting airguns and airpistols from the purview of the Arms Act.

In the middle, the manufacturers of airpistols and air rifles filed a review Petition before the Delhi High Court which stayed the operations of the Interim suspension order however, ultimately, the Writ Petition filed by Maneka Gandhi was allowed and consequently, the regulations and controls provided to all rifles of all bores ie., licensing and deposit in the armoury etc., are equally applicable to the airpistols and air rifles within the Jurisdiction of the National Capital Delhi ie., NCT within the Jurisdiction of the Delhi High Court alone as the Order of the Delhi High Court cannot extend beyond the territorial Jurisdiction of Delhi.

As regards what will happen in the Supreme Court of India, one cannot even venture a guess because the Hon'ble Supreme Court of India is very famous as a court of surprises and even the best Counsels in India cannot opine the outcome of a case in the Supreme Court with a degree of certainity.

IN this case, the issue of animal rights is involved however, the writ petitioner has not provided any data to the court regarding animal rights abuse on a massive scale on account of air rifles and air pistols and it is very strange that the Hon'ble Supreme Court allowed slaughter of cows and bulls which were beyond milching age by refusing to ban total cow slaughter by upholding the rights of the muslims to access cheap meat and the rights of the Qureshis (butchers) and the case on the point is the famous Al-Kabeer case.

Therefore, no one can say as to how and in what manner, the case will proceed even despite the fact that there is no reasonable nexus between killing of animals and birds on a mass scale on account of air rifles and air pistols.

This is posted so that the actual order may be clear to fellow forum members and Yes I agree with Admin that every Air gunner should join the crusade and support Mr. Girish Sharma.

JK

[goodboy_mentor]

a) Only one golden chance at the SC to put across a convincing argument so failure is not an option

Yes failure is certainly not an option, arguments have to be watertight. As far as question of approaching Supreme court in matter related to RKBA guaranteed under Articles 19 and 21 is concerned, it can be approached anytime under Article 32 as well as various ways including as an appeal against this judgment.

b) How come all Judges are confused about the fundamental right.

Since courts can also go against principles of justice that is why there is a provision in law called curative petition. Judges are human beings like anybody else, unless someone points out a hidden facts/finer points of law, how will the judges know? How many people in the past have pointed out to courts in an elaborate and convincing manner that RKBA is guaranteed under Article 19 and 21?

As regards what will happen in the Supreme Court of India, one cannot even venture a guess because the Hon'ble Supreme Court of India is very famous as a court of surprises

This does not mean that one should not approach Supreme Court. Rather it means that one should prepare his case extremely well so that it becomes extremely difficult for court to go against your position. If a building does not have strong foundation, it will develop cracks. Similarly if we do not build strong foundation for the case it is bound to fail. Similarly at present we lack a strong foundation like the 2nd Amendment of US Constitution. We have to build a foundation i.e. RKBA is our fundamental right. That is why I am stressing on the fact that we should stress in court that RKBA is guaranteed under Articles 19 and 21. Once this is acknowledged by Supreme Court rest of the things are automatically bound to follow.

[shadow]

Fellow Airgunners,

THIS IS A BRIEF SYNOPSIS ABOUT THE WHOLE CASE FOR EASY UNDERSTANDING .
Maneka Gandhi filed a Public interest writ petition alleging that the prevention of cruelty to animals act was being routinely violated by persons shooting down birds and small animals with airguns and airpistols which are openly available in the market without any regulation and without any licensing.

Furthermore, Maneka Gandhi challanged the central government notification dated. 13/07/1962 whereby, the airguns and airpistols have been kept outside the purview of the Arms Act whereby, no licensing is required for owning and operating an air rifle or, air pistol, and the Delhi High Court has suspended the said notification exempting airguns and airpistols from the purview of the Arms Act.

In the middle, the manufacturers of airpistols and air rifles filed a review Petition before the Delhi High Court which stayed the operations of the Interim suspension order however, ultimately, the Writ Petition filed by Maneka Gandhi was allowed and consequently, the regulations and controls provided to all rifles of all bores ie., licensing and deposit in the armoury etc., are equally applicable to the airpistols and air rifles within the Jurisdiction of the National Capital Delhi ie., NCT within the Jurisdiction of the Delhi High Court alone as the Order of the Delhi High Court cannot extend beyond the territorial Jurisdiction of Delhi.

As regards what will happen in the Supreme Court of India, one cannot even venture a guess because the Hon'ble Supreme Court of India is very famous as a court of surprises and even the best Counsels in India cannot opine the outcome of a case in the Supreme Court with a degree of certainity.

IN this case, the issue of animal rights is involved however, the writ petitioner has not provided any data to the court regarding animal rights abuse on a massive scale on account of air rifles and air pistols and it is very strange that the Hon'ble Supreme Court allowed slaughter of cows and bulls which were beyond milching age by refusing to ban total cow slaughter by upholding the rights of the muslims to access cheap meat and the rights of the Qureshis (butchers) and the case on the point is the famous Al-Kabeer case.

Therefore, no one can say as to how and in what manner, the case will proceed even despite the fact that there is no reasonable nexus between killing of animals and birds on a mass scale on account of air rifles and air pistols.

This is posted so that the actual order may be clear to fellow forum members and Yes I agree with Admin that every Air gunner should join the crusade and support Mr. Girish Sharma.

JK

Thank you JK!

Cheers,
Rup

[goodboy_mentor]

Yes I agree with Admin that every Air gunner should join the crusade and support Mr. Girish Sharma.

Does anyone know if Mr. Girish Sharma or anyone else is approaching Supreme Court regarding this matter?

[ebenezer]

Hi Good boy,

I spoke to Mr Girish Sharma a day after the verdict. He told me that they are going in for an appeal. Through other sources I came to know that the NRAI too is planning to approach the Supreme Court on this matter. I've assured Mr Sharma of all support from my end. My doubt is whether their lawyers really have a strong knowledge base to present a watertight case to fight against the illogical conclusion of the Delhi HC.
Ebenezer

-- Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:35 pm --

b) How come all Judges are confused about the fundamental right.

The Delhi HC has its verdict based on a 'general Internet search on airguns'. A general Internet search will throw up a whole lot of things - right or wrong. How can a 'learned judge' draw such a conclusion?

Ebenezer

[goodboy_mentor]

My doubt is whether their lawyers really have a strong knowledge base to present a watertight case to fight against the illogical conclusion of the Delhi HC.

If anyone knows the persons(or their lawyers) who are approaching Supreme Court in this matter, I would request if they could inform them about ideas expressed at this link http://www.lawyersclubindia.com/forum/R ... -36011.asp If Supreme Court is made to utter that RKBA is a Fundamental Right under Constitution then this entire nonsense about arms licensing will be on weak grounds(because in that case rather than license being "granted" by State, the license will be considered to have already been granted by Constitution to all citizens. The State will then not be "granting" any license but will at the most be only issuing a "copy" of license that is already granted by Constitution.)

[ebenezer]

I feel we should talk to Mr Girish Sharma about this and if possible, have a sitting with him to know how they are going to proceed with the case.

Ebenezer

[dr.jayakumar]

ebenezer,
i had gone through this thoroughly.it is NOT PRACTICAL.so donot worry.